- cross-posted to:
- climate@slrpnk.net
- cross-posted to:
- climate@slrpnk.net
The measure to make vehicles weighing 1.6 tons and over pay 3x the parking rates for the first two hours has passed in Paris.
Now, let’s get that in place for London and many other other places to help slow, and even reverse, this trend towards massive personal vehicles.
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I might be wrong but most people who live and work in Paris don’t drive. They have great public transit and there’s a huge walking culture. When I was in Paris the only large vehicles I saw where taxis.
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Hopefully the next step is to just…not have parking spaces that big. Make sure there’s just no way to park the thing anywhere in the city, that could actually make a difference.
Your impression seems correct. I haven’t manged to get to Paris yet, but the numbers I found align with your experiences. From a transport in Paris article:
“Paris has one of the most sustainable transportation systems in the world (private cars are only 12% of the overall traffic)”
“According to a 2018 INSEE survey, a majority of Parisians (64.3 percent) use public transport to get to work. Only 10.6 percent commuted to work by automobile. 10.5 percent walked or used roller skates; 5.5 percent commuted by bicycle; and 4.4 percent commuted by motorbike”
The local residents use public transit or walk/bike for work. They likely do exactly the same for daily errands, shopping, and entertainment. That’s how it was in Berlin, London, and Helsinki when I was in those cities and it’s wonderful.
Fuck cars but especially fuck SUVs
But also fuck those pickup truck monstrosities.
Aren’t those classed as SUVs? Is there a pickup truck class?
In the US at least SUVs classify as a “light truck” but the US is probably the outlier.
TLDR: driving giant SUVs is ok as long as you’re rich.
This is both not enough and better than nothing.
I’m all for taxing the rich more, it’s not ultimately my final goal but it’s something.
It’s a good first step. The second one, of course, being
.
Are you against any sort of tax for oversized vehicles? Do you also believe that congestion pricing “hurts poor people”?
Also, giant SUVs are only accessible to the rich anyways. No poor person is driving around an Audi Q8 or a Cadillac Escalade, they take the train.
When giant SUVs are only accessible to the rich anyways, then the whole premise of tripling parking fees is meaningless to begin with. And yes, I’m against the idea of trying to solve the problem using a tax because it’s a performative measure that accomplishes nothing of real value while distracting from real solutions. I believe this accomplishes about as much as carbon taxes.
When giant SUVs are only accessible to the rich anyways, then the whole premise of tripling parking fees is meaningless to begin with.
Driving your car seems free because you’ve already paid for it yesterday at the pump. Expensive parking puts a real, visible price on driving that you have to confront every single day.
The rich doesn’t solely consist of Jeff Bezos and co. Most people who drive luxury SUVs cannot afford tripled parking prices in the city every day. And even if they could, this forces them to reconsider their habits and maybe take the train next time.
And yes, I’m against the idea of trying to solve the problem using a tax because it’s a performative measure that accomplishes nothing of real value while distracting from real solutions.
This is not a performative measure, this is the real solution. Driving needs to become multiple times more expensive, and a tripled parking price is a good place to start. Drivers are heavily subsidized by society and this subsidy needs to end, and these taxes are the first step in that direction.
I believe this accomplishes about as much as carbon taxes.
You can’t be fucking serious lol.
The rich doesn’t solely consist of Jeff Bezos and co. Most people who drive luxury SUVs cannot afford tripled parking prices in the city every day.
[citation needed]
This is not a performative measure, this is the real solution.
Sure, just like carbon tax.
You can’t be fucking serious lol.
I can be fucking serious, and if you genuinely think carbon taxes are accomplishing anything meaningful then what else is there to say to you.
Let’s cut to the chase: do you oppose congestion pricing?
Do you oppose congestion pricing because it “hurts the working poor” and that it’s just a “performative gesture”?
I don’t think it’s the right approach for meaningfully addressing the problem. The real solution is to invest in building public transit infrastructure, to design cities to be walkable. Congestion pricing simply creates a penalty for people without providing them with alternative. Should be pretty easy to understand why this is not a real solution.
The real solution is to invest in building public transit infrastructure, to design cities to be walkable.
We are talking about Paris here. Paris has the best public transit infrastructure in the world. Paris is highly walkable.
People who drive downtown have no excuse for their actions and must be penalized accordingly.
When London implemented congestion pricing, it significantly improved traffic and encouraged people to take transit. You are completely ignoring reality if you oppose congestion pricing on the basis of it being ineffective.
Congestion pricing simply creates a penalty for people without providing them with alternative.
Are you seriously arguing you can’t get around Paris without a car lol?
The thing is, SUV prices depreciate, and people who would never be able to afford a new one can easily obtain them used. Gas prices are obviously not enough of a deterrent even to those living paycheck to paycheck. Some additional barriers to disincentivize the choice of driving the largest car they can afford is very welcome.
Again, my point is that this approach creates a two tiered system where people who can afford it get to flaunt the rules everybody else has to play by. An outright ban that applies to everyone equally is a much more fair measure.
@yogthos @BoxedFenders more likely they’re flouting the rules tbh
Please show me the mythical poor people who are driving around downtown Paris in their SUVs. Please, show me one! They don’t exist! Please stop pearl clutching over the plight of the mythical poor Parisian SUV driver!
And more straw manning. Props for working hard to twist what I say to fit the argument you want to argue against champ.
You have got to be American right? The right for one to drive their big-ass SUV downtown is not something the Parisian working-class is concerned about!
Working-class Parisians are not buying and driving big-ass SUVs downtown anyways! No poor people are being harmed by this!
If nothing else, its making the “Pro-Driving Big Things Just Because I Can” people mad and I’m all for it.
No one drives in Paris who’s not already rich, the public transportation there is great
So then SUVs should just be banned right?
Should? Yes. Big doubt anything like this would happen in the current political landscape in France
“Punishable by fine” is just another way of saying “it’s legal if you can afford it.”
exactly!
Poor people aren’t driving SUVs around downtown Paris in the first place. I do not weep for nonexistent people.
It’s actually incredible that you have people on fuck cars that are AGAINST raising the prices of car parking. Anything that’s done to make driving more expensive and less subsidized is anti-poor apparently. Literally indistinguishable from pro-car concern trolling.
got nothing to do with the point I was making, but you do you
Imperfect measures that improve society somewhat are actually fucking evil.
🙄
The question was if heavier cars should pay more. Heavier cars are more expensive to buy, so this means that people who can afford a big car, will pay more. It’s a sort of progressive taxation by proxy.
For context: don’t forget that this isn’t the US: not everyone drives an SUV/pick-uptruck. Here you can see the size of the most popular car in France, compared to a pick-up truck.
As it should. Be the heavier the car the more dangerous it is for pedestrians and the more destructive it is for infrastructure.
Good. Fucking hate those things.
All this arguing over progressive fining versus just slashing the tyres of all parked SUVs you see.
tyre extinguishers are based as fuck and they have caused a nonzero amount of people to reconsider their purchase of an SUV or to not drive their SUV downtown
I had this idea of putting construction foam into the exhaust.
I own an SUV and I’d still vote for a parking tax on them. Or pay per pound, estimated of course. You don’t want people deciding to go for the mega F-250s because they aren’t subject to the SUV tax.
We have two: A Ford Explorer (really trying to get the money to get rid of it) and a Forester. The Forester is small enough that it wouldn’t be triple pay in Paris, but the Explorer is a 3 ton brick. We had it because a few years back we still had six kids at home, but now that they’re filtering off to college, we are desperate to downsize. We’re being stopped because our city’s public transit (yay US cities) is a shitshow and our workplaces haven’t given us raises in years. Yes, we’re looking for other work, but so far it’s been tough to find things in our field, etc.
As soon as we can, that vehicle is being kicked to the curb. It’s a terrible waste.
Yeah I similarly got the SUV because of kids and I think there are use cases for them, they’re just vastly overpurchased and a tax could curb that.
So any car over 3,200lbs. my subcompact Honda Fit weighs 2300lbs. The 2024 Honda Accord weighs 3200lbs. I know eu has many more subcompact options than the US, cuz every car available here is basically an increasingly egg shaped amalgam of station wagon SUVs that weigh 4k lbs.
I was wondering how they would define what an SUV would be. If they’re using weight, won’t they be charging a bunch of electric cars extra too?
Electric Cars aren’t a better alternative to “fewer cars.”
One electric car is better than one gasoline car, because electric cars don’t fart toxic gases into the air where everyone’s trying to breathe.
I’d take 10 electric cars over 7 gasoline fart cans any day of the week.
But we’re talking a very large city where the goal isn’t to make driving a car more expensive “just because” its to reduce the number of cars in town.
One electric car is better than one gasoline car, because electric cars don’t fart toxic gases into the air where everyone’s trying to breathe.
Nah, the fart particles are still there though and those get worse with weight
the fart particles are still there though
As a person who rides bikes a lot, I strongly prefer sitting at a stoplight behind an electric vehicle over a gasoline vehicle. Tailpipe emissions matter a great deal even though EVs don’t completely solve the problem of cars creating air pollution.
Of course, I still prefer no cars over electric cars.
I mean, much the same, but I’m kind of split whether they’re meaningfully better. Unless it’s smog smog I have some ways to avoid car exhaust, like not standing directly beside it, where I live even the law allows for that. I don’t put down enough watts to transport myself to a stable orbit.
But, just to be clear, this is me arguing against all cars, not pro gasoline cars over electric cars
I’m just mad that my city built a new protected bike lane along a busy road, but the air smells so bad because of car exhaust lol
As they should. This is foremost a measure to make cars smaller and allow for less dangerous and stressful daily commutes by foot/bicycle.
From the article, its mostly about weight with Electric Cars having a higher weight threshold than Non-Electric Cars.
Also from the article, its not a ban, its just higher parking prices. So if you’ve got the cash, you can drive an H3 into downtown Paris all you want.
Yeah, sorry, corrected the bit about banning.
Yup. EVs also run into the tonnage limit quickly too. A Tesla Model 3 single engine is 1.75 tons (no extra parking costs), but the dual motor is over 2 tons.
The US has way too many vehicles that should be about 20-30% smaller and lighter for basic city driving. Even the “small” vehicles aren’t small anymore.
The SUVs in Europe are also smaller on average than the behemoths on American roads. The largest ones you will come across in France will be BMW X5 sized. And while they are large, they are utterly dwarfed by SUVs like the Suburban, Sequoia and Escalade. An Escalade vs X5 comparison here.
Indeed! It’s really hard to explain just how much smaller the traffic feels in European cities, even when there’s lots of vehicles they’re still less massive overall. I have taken video footage of traffic in a few different European cities just to show people how much smaller, quieter, and less dense rush hour traffic is. Even when comparing it to my US mid-sized city’s traffic.
It’s just nicer to be around roads with fewer and smaller cars.
In other news: Peugeot and Renault announce 1.59 ton Urban Utility Vehicles.
For a second I thought it said “block” instead of “back”, and I was disappointed. Nice to see they’re trying to do something about the issue.
I drive a Jeep (the unlimited though, so the large one). Good…
I want to see a trend towards smaller 4wd’s and other cars. And I seem to be the only larger car that can park within the lines too. And the height of my car is low compared to the people with Rangers or Dodge Ram’s (and it is rare to see any of those actually towing anything). In my case, I run a hiking group, so really need a 4wd, but will probably be looking at something more economical and smaller, like a jimny
I was hit by a car once when I was on my scooter, and I was lucky it was by a small car…
And I feel larger cars like me should pay extra (and I agree with some comments saying to charge per additional weight). We have a toxic culture here where people are moving towards big cars just to impress others (along with the toxic nonsense that comes along with it), and this is the only way the culture will change
Just narrow the lanes and roads even futher so it makes SUV untenable
Do you think that would stop people who buy Escalades and Ford F250s? They already drive over the lines in my city because they’re too wide. The vast majority of people who buy those kinds of vehicles are self-centered and selfish enough to not care if they’re being dangerous in narrow lanes. They are already doing that.
Hell, I saw a person drive their Ford F650 to fucking Starbucks last week. It barely fit into the parking lot. Not a parking spot (it definitely didn’t fit into that), but even just turning and maneuvering in the lot was nearly impossible. He likely burned a gallon of gas just jockying in and out of the lot.
