Could you provide an example of Hexbears agreeing with the alt-right about something specific? I think a lot of people conflate “disagreeing with the liberal consensus” with “thinking a MAGA thing” when they’re really pretty different.
wikileaks published a private diplomatic cable stating that no one was killed in the square itself, although a smaller number of people did die in clashes elsewhere in Beijing, consistent with China’s own official account. (Here’s a Telegraph article on the cables).
tank man: the tanks in the video are leaving the square (you can see this in the uncropped footage) and it is broad daylight, whereas the main violence occurred at night.
the violence against troops was uncharacteristic of the previous tone of interactions between troops and protesters in the preceding weeks. Troops and protesters had peacefully coexisted, singing songs and sharing food together. (Here’s an article that goes into it a bit)
Just posting an image of a man who stood in front of an actively moving tank, crawled all over it, then walked away unscathed doesn’t prove anything that you think it proves.
Go do that on one of your own military’s tanks today. You’d be doing me, yourself, and frankly the entire world a favour if you had the courage to try it.
It’s the 1989 Tiemaman square Tank Man picture and Xi Jinping as Whinnie the Pooh, images commonly censored in China as one of them demonstrates clear oppression and the other discredits the CCP.
Oppression is when you stand in the way of a tank and the tank stops for you, and then you climb on top of the tank and have a conversation with the guy in the tank, and then you walk off completely unharmed
Have you ever seen the complete tank man video? he doesn’t get run over, while in the authoritarian US state vehicles are often running into peaceful protestors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-W-7WPWfE4
Recently someone started trying to bring large Lemmy instances down by posting CSAM on large instances with open sign ups, as a result the hexbear mods made it so that images from untrusted instances wouldn’t be shown to hexbear users to avoid hexbear users having to see stuff like that and to reduce the mods workload, idk whether its a temporary measure or not but for now all images from untrusted instances are just replaced with the words *removed externally hosted image* on our end
When being “not pro west” means not analyzing the conflict but simply adopting the same point of view as Russian propaganda just because Ukraine is supported by the west then yeah, you’re pro Russia.
What are you talking about? We have a huge incredibly active news mega that does analysis daily. The fact that we are as sceptical of western media as we are of russian is a good thing. You shouldn’t just uncritically swallow state department propaganda. You should investigate claims made, instead of just accepting them.
Why can’t you see the difference? We see the west and Nato as having propagated and profited off of this conflict. Russia is guilty as well as Ukraine in fanning the flames of war. But peace is a far better alternative to war and far better than flooding the area with weapons. Weapons that will continue to do damage long after hostility ends. Pro Russia How?
When being “not pro west” means not analyzing the conflict
Just like you analyzed our news megathreads from the last year to make this assessment?
It just fucking baffles me how people from other instances feel so comfortable talking shit straight from their ass. I just don’t understand the mentality. It’s fucking slimy. You can just do that shit and you don’t feel dirty?
Lmao propaganda is when you source your claims so others can check for themselves. It’s pretty clear you’re just very insecure of your knowledge. At some level you know you’re wrong, so you’re afraid of being challenged on it.
In my experience alt right folks are pretty anti China, to the point where that is often the reason they oppose the Ukraine war, as it is dividing the attention of the Christian west from the rising, menacing Tigers that threaten white society.
Hexbears are often skeptical of Adrian Zenz who is usually the source of claims about China. Most that I’ve seen acknowledge that there are camps (China openly says it is running programs to deradicalize separatists and fundamentalists in the region), but disagree that they are as bad as western media depicts them, and would probably argue that western nations are concern trolling about the issue regardless because it is easy to question whether American foreign policy is motivated by concern for Muslims. Genuinely curious, who is an alt-right guy who doesn’t think there are camps in Xinjiang? I’ve never encountered a pro-Chinese reactionary.
As to Korea I thought MAGA types just memed about Kim Jong Un because Trump sort of got along with him. Hexbears think that the Korean War was bad and that Korea is acting predictably given that a nuclear power is constantly threatening them with annihilation. There are a variety of positions in Hexbear on the DPRK though, and I can’t really account for all of them, but I think they arise out of a genuine anti-imperial and anti-war sentiment, and a healthy doze of skepticism of western narratives of a state enemy. I don’t think you could say that for the alt right.
Last I checked the alt right believes them same claims about the world that dems do in terms of the supposed camps, they just think they are good because the alt right hates muslims
I think, for example, that most alt-right types oppose the war either because of chauvinistic beliefs about American boys and American blood and treasure being spent on foreigners, or because they would like to work together with Russia to counter China and think a war with them hurts the white struggle against the eastern hordes. No one on hexbear would defend either of those positions.
It needs to be more specific than “both of you are against continuing the war.” Just like it wouldn’t be fair for me to accuse you of being alt- right because you and them both agree that there weren’t WMDs in Iraq and that that invasion was sold on false pretenses. You might both technically agree but it would be missing the point.
It’s theories about how spheres of influence work, that Russia has a right to take over Ukraine, or at least override it politically. Very much similar to Kissinger’s Great power politics in the days of the USSR. It’s somewhat different than the Russian right which is their divine right to Empire, over the Ukrainians and the Poles and Slavic countries in general. The ideologues Ivan Ilyin and Karl Schmidt influence that part.
But notably, both parts believe that there’s a place that Russia must dominate in Europe, and that other great powers must not interfere there.
Leftists also are influenced by these theories, especially when they remember the reaches of the Iron Curtain far into Central Europe. The USSR had a history of intervening into the politics of its satellite states. Notably in Hungary when there were democratic protests, they sent in tanks to quell the uprising.
This theory echoes in 2014 when the Ukrainians changed their government, and Russia invades and annexes Crimea. Many on the far left and far right see the massive protests as creeping American influence that does not belong in the region. They fear NATO expansion as it is a threat to Russia; In the west it’s Russia itself, and in Russia, it’s Russian greatness in Empire.
I’m sorry, I’m not sure I understand. Liberals don’t believe that countries exert influence on other countries around them? You think Joe Biden objects to the concept of spheres of influence? You brought up Kissinger, you don’t think US foreign policy is operating under the logic of realpolitik? I’m not sure what the alternative is to believing that countries act to pursue their interests in other countries. That just sounds like a description of the concept of foreign policy.
notably in Hungary when there were democratic protests
You’re talking about the fascist uprising where they went around marking the houses of Jews and Communists for extermination, like only a decade after the Soviets saved the world from Hitler?
How is being pro russia and wanting war to end in any way compatible though? They invaded Ukraine. They literally started a war. That’s a pretty disgusting deflection tbh
NATO/US started the war when they couped the democratically elected Ukrainian government in 2014, and when the US installed regime started bombing civilians in the Donbass
Where did I say any of that? I was simply correcting the poster about who the original instigators of the conflict were, and pointing out the fact that the banderite regime has been killing innocent Ukrainians for years, history did not begin in February 2022
Acknowledging the US’s role in creating the conflict and the crimes of the regime they installed is not the same as supporting Russia’s actions
Russia started a war. Ukraine has two choices. Surrender and end the bloodshed, or fight tooth and nail and pour more innocent people into the meat grinder and then surrender. There is not a third option. Obviously they should choose the former.
We’re just not keeping our head in the sand here. Ukraine is not taking back Crimea, or even the Donbas. The counteroffensive failed horribly. Cheering for more bloodshed isn’t going to make a better outcome in the end.
“cheering for more bloodshed.” Are you telling on yourself? You act like a counteroffensive is supposed to be fast and easy. It’s not, war is bloody and deadly and Russia is not going to call for peace until they achieve their objective of overthrowing the Ukrainian government or achieving a peace deal where they can keep Ukraine’s economic sectors
You act like peace deals are the same thing as calls for peace. They can still have peace deals to appear they want peace when they started the war in the first place back in 2014
You act as if a peace deal isn’t literally someone calling for peace.
Lmao what with the “infiltrators” that cannot be proven? The two oblasts have a large population that is ethnically russian. When a government that had spoken of cleansing russian influence comes into power, it is pretty understandable that that would foment separatism. At best we can prove Russia provided financial aid to separatists, and then later stepped in and negotiate Minsk I and II, which were both broken by Ukraine
Yall calling for the continuation of the war are telling on yourselves. Otherwise you’d fucking be fighting rather than advocating behind a computer for others to die. Too scared to go to Spain and fight the fascists?
Oh man the the US union should’ve just given up the civil war instead of continuing the fighting. Think of all the good Americans that will die. Let’s just let the confederates secede instead of having a bloody conflict
The only progress the counteroffensive has made is in destroying Western materiel and getting scores of Ukrainians killed. They haven’t even reached the second defensive line yet. The total amount of territory retaken is like 100 meters of farmland. I’m calling it a failure because it is a failure.
You act like a counteroffensive is supposed to be fast and easy.
It’s September. Their window to make any gains in their counteroffensive has passed. Now they have to fight against the weather on top of the Russians.
“Ukraine should surrender so that they can spare their civilian and combatant lives to Russia which totally won’t abuse their land and people as they’ve done in the past”
Ukraine should surrender now while people still have families to come home to, instead of propagating senseless death.
You’re also just making russian demands up? At no point during this war has Russia sought to annex the entirety of Ukraine, which it seems to be whate you are implying they will do.
Please try to remain in reality.
You’re linking me to the Woodrow Wilson institute? Lmao get the fuck out of here. Whats next, radio free Russia? If you want a serious answer to what Russia claims just look at what demands they have made - these are the demands negotiations revolve around
There were pogroms and mass murders at the ground level and there were laws targeting Russian speakers from the governmental level. The weapons Trump was impeached for tying political favors to were being used against resistance militias. They were being used to bomb facilities built in the soviet era that pump hot water into people’s homes as the local method of heating during the winter. They locked over a hundred people in a building and burned them alive in it. They broke multiple treaties with Russia in order to do all of this. This was the lead up to the war.
Do you think we’re in charge of the Russian military? The war is going to end eventually one way or another. We might as well push for the path that preserves Ukrainian lives.
Are we in charge of the Ukrainian military? Not that it really matters, but still.
Russia can unilaterally end the conflict. Ukraine cannot (yet). Calling on Ukrainians to surrender while they still want to defend themselves is cowardice. I would rather support their continued struggle.
You just insulted me with the sole thrust being that I’m not in your echo chamber.
I’m referencing real world events. Do you not believe Ukraine broke both Minsk I and II as a lead up to the war? Do you not have google?
e: And what’s this weasel bullshit where you slipped in ‘Ukrainians’ like I’m going after the citizens and not the government? The Ukrainian people haven’t had a legitimate government since 2014 when the one they actually elected themselves was deposed in a far right western backed coup.
Do you not believe Ukraine broke both Minsk I and II as a lead up to the war?
What I think is that it doesn’t matter in the context of an aggressive war against a country that was not threatening Russia.
Minsk I came about after the Russian military had invaded and annexed Ukrainian territory. The first of these two agreements is already taking place after the initial aggression and thus are not really factors in the question of whether Ukraine should defend itself from that aggression.
With that said, Minsk I saw violations on both sides and fell apart for that reason. Minsk II was fundamentally similar to Minsk I and thus was going to struggle to escape the same fate. While the Russians claimed that Ukraine violated the terms of Minsk II, they also claimed that they were not a party to Minsk II and thus were not violating it with their own troop buildup. Of course, they also claim that Ukraine’s supposed violations of Minsk II were justification for further Russian invasion, despite claiming to not be a party to the treaty. That’s some duplicitous behavior and, again, if I were in Ukraine I would not want the Russian military in my country.
All that said, the point that Minsk I and II are not justification for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. They sure as hell were not justification for the initial invasion of Crimea, Luhansk, and Donetsk (not existing yet during those) and they’re not justification of Russia’s continued invasion deeper into Ukraine.
What I think is that it doesn’t matter in the context of an aggressive war against a country that was not threatening Russia.
Lol well that’s just a fucking lie. Zelenksy was openly threatening to host nuclear weapons for Nato on the eve of the invasion. Do you have a selective memory or are you just fucking ignorant of the entire history of this conflict and should therefore shut the fuck up?
Minsk I came about after the Russian military had invaded and annexed Ukrainian territory.
They didn’t invade; they were already there. The legitimate government of Ukraine leased the naval base to them in Crimea and when the western backed coup government wanted to revoke the lease they simply stayed. Accuse them of squatting.
The first of these two agreements is already taking place after the initial aggression and thus are not really factors in the question of whether Ukraine should defend itself from that aggression.
Well that’s just fucking stupid. Peace treaties don’t count if they came after a war?
Damn too bad they’re not going to do that, so what should we do about that? We support a negotiated settlement to the conflict in order to achieve peace, you support marching every single Ukrainian person into a meat grinder to die. Which of is more right wing?
This isn’t about us. What “we” should do is to support and show solidarity with the side being attacked by an imperialist, dictatorial state and help them defend themselves.
When the Finnish were defending themselves in the Winter War it would not have been just to say “they should just surrender to save their lives”. The Finns did eventually surrender, but only after they had stomped the Soviet army all across Finland. They continued fighting not to die but so that they could live.
The Ukrainians are fighting now not to die but so that they can live in (relative) freedom.
Again, this “we should just capitulate to whatever warmongers want” stuff is shameful and cowardly, doubly so for people on the Left.
Lol of all the examples, you pick another group of Nazis as a favorable point of comparison!! Wtf. Thank GOD the Soviets beat the Finnish Nazis in that war and then went on to beat the German Nazis after that.
Also lmao at calling Ukraine a free country compared to Russia, it’s just as fucked politically even prior to this invasion, now they’ve banned all left wing parties and are putting up statues of Nazis all over the place, fuck off, this has nothing at all to do with freedom.
Finland allied with the Nazis after the Winter War, in an attempt to regain their sovereignty from the USSR. They were not allied with Nazi Germany during the Winter War–and after the war, the leadership of the USSR agreed that Finland was not a particular risk and could be left alone.
Also lmao at calling Ukraine a free country compared to Russia
Ukraine is a far, far freer country than Russia. Of that there should be no doubt. On what merit, what axis, is Russia a freer society? Perhaps there is one, but Russia today is a corrupt, dictatorial, fascist state whose ruling party routinely imprisons or assassinates its political opposition or just general dissidents. They’re also hardcore anti-gay, among other things.
Ukraine did suspend a number of pro-Russia political parties recently. Even if it was specifically targeting left-wing parties that still pales in comparison to Russia’s treatment of political opposition and let’s not forget that Ukraine is currently waging a defensive war against Russia. Also Zelensky is Jewish so i doubt he is putting up Nazi statues or in favor of doing so. I presume you’re referring to activity of the Azov Battalion or some other group inside Ukraine and while those are dangerous and problematic, the Nazis in the Russian army are (I suspect) a more serious threat to the Ukrainian people right now.
Russia and Ukraine are basically the same politically, except for there are more Nazis in power in Ukraine. Prior to the invasion Ukraine was categorically ranked as the most corrupt country in Europe, Zelensky himself is in the Panama papers, they absolutely are not good on gay rights either, they overthrew their democratically elected president in 2014 in a CIA backed coup to put in a government handpicked by the U.S. (we can listen to Nuland picking the government on leaked phone calls), they’ve banned political opposition and all leftist parties (not pro-Russia, just all leftists. Being leftist generally means having semi sane takes like not wanting everybody in the country to die, so they had to be banned by the Nazi regime).
Also I didn’t say Russia is a free country, but Ukraine is easily just as bad if not worse, it’s a total farce to make this about freedom or democracy or any of that shit. Hell if democracy in Ukraine was real the war wouldn’t be happening, Zelensky was elected to end the conflict in the Donbass, he went to the front lines and told the Nazis to lay down arms and they told him to fuck off lol. You can watch the video of that happening.
imagine dying on the “war is bad” hill. i can agree on that point, and i don’t even need to politically align myself with real shitters and make a fool of myself in pseudo-public to do it!
Could you provide an example of Hexbears agreeing with the alt-right about something specific? I think a lot of people conflate “disagreeing with the liberal consensus” with “thinking a MAGA thing” when they’re really pretty different.
They are pro Russia.
Hexbear is very categorically not pro Russia, we’re just not pro West
I can’t hear you, the Arms Deliverys to Ukraine are to loud!
Fuck you people. You are pro China and Russia.
We are pro China, we are not pro Russia
Same thing.
Taiwan is a Country
Not according to the US or EUs member nations or Taiwan
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Not really. Not even amerikkka agrees
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Reposted from further upthread.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=JMtopY3pcZs
https://piped.video/watch?v=Vu3zmbFGwQA
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Where’s the lies? I literally provided sources for you to research on your own. How are you this incapable of critical thinking?
Just posting an image of a man who stood in front of an actively moving tank, crawled all over it, then walked away unscathed doesn’t prove anything that you think it proves.
Go do that on one of your own military’s tanks today. You’d be doing me, yourself, and frankly the entire world a favour if you had the courage to try it.
Why don’t you link a video of this incident instead of just a still image?
I’m confused. There doesn’t seem to be anything happening in this image?
/s
I am incredibly owned rn
Lmao your instance literally blocks it. Just shows how your instance can go fuck themselves.
Our instance doesn’t show any externally hosted images, it’s not about what’s in the image idiot
correct, we don’t allow racism or bigotry on our instance, fashie. sorry that offends you.
classic centrist move, idk why people question their alignment so much
It’s the 1989 Tiemaman square Tank Man picture and Xi Jinping as Whinnie the Pooh, images commonly censored in China as one of them demonstrates clear oppression and the other discredits the CCP.
Oppression is when you stand in the way of a tank and the tank stops for you, and then you climb on top of the tank and have a conversation with the guy in the tank, and then you walk off completely unharmed
Oh, so @CookieJarObserver is using the racist Whinnie the Pooh insult.
As always. Scratch a liberal and a fascist/racist bleeds.
Have you ever seen the complete tank man video? he doesn’t get run over, while in the authoritarian US state vehicles are often running into peaceful protestors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-W-7WPWfE4
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How dare those tanks not run over that man! Don’t they understand that freedom is when you just plow into people like US security forces do.
I’m fairly new to Lemmy. What does that signify? something to do with federation I guess? I can see the picture - Xi as Pooh Bear…
Recently someone started trying to bring large Lemmy instances down by posting CSAM on large instances with open sign ups, as a result the hexbear mods made it so that images from untrusted instances wouldn’t be shown to hexbear users to avoid hexbear users having to see stuff like that and to reduce the mods workload, idk whether its a temporary measure or not but for now all images from untrusted instances are just replaced with the words *removed externally hosted image* on our end
you’re literally pro-nazi and you’re complaining about us lmao
Lmao go further supporting genocides.
Which genocides are we supporting? Point me to specific posts please.
They cant
It’s amazing how asking for any reference immediately disbands the libs
Say that more than 3 screen inches from you supporting ethnic cleansing next time please.
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So you support the genocide in Donbas?
When being “not pro west” means not analyzing the conflict but simply adopting the same point of view as Russian propaganda just because Ukraine is supported by the west then yeah, you’re pro Russia.
What are you talking about? We have a huge incredibly active news mega that does analysis daily. The fact that we are as sceptical of western media as we are of russian is a good thing. You shouldn’t just uncritically swallow state department propaganda. You should investigate claims made, instead of just accepting them.
What is the Russian propaganda that we’re repeating in regard to Ukraine?
Why can’t you see the difference? We see the west and Nato as having propagated and profited off of this conflict. Russia is guilty as well as Ukraine in fanning the flames of war. But peace is a far better alternative to war and far better than flooding the area with weapons. Weapons that will continue to do damage long after hostility ends. Pro Russia How?
Just like you analyzed our news megathreads from the last year to make this assessment?
It just fucking baffles me how people from other instances feel so comfortable talking shit straight from their ass. I just don’t understand the mentality. It’s fucking slimy. You can just do that shit and you don’t feel dirty?
Go into the news mega and post your “analysis” we would love to see it
No thanks, I’m not into brigading :)
Are you this afraid of learning something? Coward
Nah, I just don’t like being subjected to Chinese propaganda or any other propaganda as a matter of fact…
Lmao propaganda is when you source your claims so others can check for themselves. It’s pretty clear you’re just very insecure of your knowledge. At some level you know you’re wrong, so you’re afraid of being challenged on it.
…except if it originates in
clearly
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Why do you think it is impossible to just dislike two things at once?
Mostly about China and North Korea.
Alt right and alt left both deny Uyghur camps, and think Kim Jong Un is pretty awesome.
In my experience alt right folks are pretty anti China, to the point where that is often the reason they oppose the Ukraine war, as it is dividing the attention of the Christian west from the rising, menacing Tigers that threaten white society.
Hexbears are often skeptical of Adrian Zenz who is usually the source of claims about China. Most that I’ve seen acknowledge that there are camps (China openly says it is running programs to deradicalize separatists and fundamentalists in the region), but disagree that they are as bad as western media depicts them, and would probably argue that western nations are concern trolling about the issue regardless because it is easy to question whether American foreign policy is motivated by concern for Muslims. Genuinely curious, who is an alt-right guy who doesn’t think there are camps in Xinjiang? I’ve never encountered a pro-Chinese reactionary.
As to Korea I thought MAGA types just memed about Kim Jong Un because Trump sort of got along with him. Hexbears think that the Korean War was bad and that Korea is acting predictably given that a nuclear power is constantly threatening them with annihilation. There are a variety of positions in Hexbear on the DPRK though, and I can’t really account for all of them, but I think they arise out of a genuine anti-imperial and anti-war sentiment, and a healthy doze of skepticism of western narratives of a state enemy. I don’t think you could say that for the alt right.
Alt right and Liberals both hate China
Trump derangement syndrome is all too real and the proof is how liberals reacted to him trying to end the Korean war.
Same thing with Afghanistan.
Alt Right and alt left both deny the existence of the tooth fairy
Last I checked the alt right believes them same claims about the world that dems do in terms of the supposed camps, they just think they are good because the alt right hates muslims
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Could you be more specific?
I think, for example, that most alt-right types oppose the war either because of chauvinistic beliefs about American boys and American blood and treasure being spent on foreigners, or because they would like to work together with Russia to counter China and think a war with them hurts the white struggle against the eastern hordes. No one on hexbear would defend either of those positions.
It needs to be more specific than “both of you are against continuing the war.” Just like it wouldn’t be fair for me to accuse you of being alt- right because you and them both agree that there weren’t WMDs in Iraq and that that invasion was sold on false pretenses. You might both technically agree but it would be missing the point.
It’s theories about how spheres of influence work, that Russia has a right to take over Ukraine, or at least override it politically. Very much similar to Kissinger’s Great power politics in the days of the USSR. It’s somewhat different than the Russian right which is their divine right to Empire, over the Ukrainians and the Poles and Slavic countries in general. The ideologues Ivan Ilyin and Karl Schmidt influence that part. But notably, both parts believe that there’s a place that Russia must dominate in Europe, and that other great powers must not interfere there. Leftists also are influenced by these theories, especially when they remember the reaches of the Iron Curtain far into Central Europe. The USSR had a history of intervening into the politics of its satellite states. Notably in Hungary when there were democratic protests, they sent in tanks to quell the uprising. This theory echoes in 2014 when the Ukrainians changed their government, and Russia invades and annexes Crimea. Many on the far left and far right see the massive protests as creeping American influence that does not belong in the region. They fear NATO expansion as it is a threat to Russia; In the west it’s Russia itself, and in Russia, it’s Russian greatness in Empire.
I’m sorry, I’m not sure I understand. Liberals don’t believe that countries exert influence on other countries around them? You think Joe Biden objects to the concept of spheres of influence? You brought up Kissinger, you don’t think US foreign policy is operating under the logic of realpolitik? I’m not sure what the alternative is to believing that countries act to pursue their interests in other countries. That just sounds like a description of the concept of foreign policy.
You’re talking about the fascist uprising where they went around marking the houses of Jews and Communists for extermination, like only a decade after the Soviets saved the world from Hitler?
I think Belarus should annex both countries.
I find these terms agreeable
And you guys and MAGA have similar views on China
we want an immediate end to the war. in what way does wanting an end to the death make us comparable with the alt-right?
How is being pro russia and wanting war to end in any way compatible though? They invaded Ukraine. They literally started a war. That’s a pretty disgusting deflection tbh
How is wanting an end to a war being pro-russia?
NATO/US started the war when they couped the democratically elected Ukrainian government in 2014, and when the US installed regime started bombing civilians in the Donbass
Oh so Russia is just saving Ukrainians from US imperialism by bombing them and committing war crimes. Thank god for our wonderful leader putin o7
Where did I say any of that? I was simply correcting the poster about who the original instigators of the conflict were, and pointing out the fact that the banderite regime has been killing innocent Ukrainians for years, history did not begin in February 2022
Acknowledging the US’s role in creating the conflict and the crimes of the regime they installed is not the same as supporting Russia’s actions
Russia started a war. Ukraine has two choices. Surrender and end the bloodshed, or fight tooth and nail and pour more innocent people into the meat grinder and then surrender. There is not a third option. Obviously they should choose the former.
Calling for an immediate end to the war is dishonest and supports Russia
We’re just not keeping our head in the sand here. Ukraine is not taking back Crimea, or even the Donbas. The counteroffensive failed horribly. Cheering for more bloodshed isn’t going to make a better outcome in the end.
“cheering for more bloodshed.” Are you telling on yourself? You act like a counteroffensive is supposed to be fast and easy. It’s not, war is bloody and deadly and Russia is not going to call for peace until they achieve their objective of overthrowing the Ukrainian government or achieving a peace deal where they can keep Ukraine’s economic sectors
So that was a fucking lie
[1] [2] [3] [4] [5]
You act like peace deals are the same thing as calls for peace. They can still have peace deals to appear they want peace when they started the war in the first place back in 2014
You act as if a peace deal isn’t literally someone calling for peace.
Lmao what with the “infiltrators” that cannot be proven? The two oblasts have a large population that is ethnically russian. When a government that had spoken of cleansing russian influence comes into power, it is pretty understandable that that would foment separatism. At best we can prove Russia provided financial aid to separatists, and then later stepped in and negotiate Minsk I and II, which were both broken by Ukraine
Yall calling for the continuation of the war are telling on yourselves. Otherwise you’d fucking be fighting rather than advocating behind a computer for others to die. Too scared to go to Spain and fight the fascists?
Oh man the the US union should’ve just given up the civil war instead of continuing the fighting. Think of all the good Americans that will die. Let’s just let the confederates secede instead of having a bloody conflict
You think the country that has a national holiday to celebrate their Nazi era leader is the Union in this analogy?
Nice false equivalent. Keep trying.
If you think it’s this important, why aren’t you volunteering?
The only progress the counteroffensive has made is in destroying Western materiel and getting scores of Ukrainians killed. They haven’t even reached the second defensive line yet. The total amount of territory retaken is like 100 meters of farmland. I’m calling it a failure because it is a failure.
Hey, it’s made a lot of money for the military-industrial complex too!
You can’t call it a wash like that when, back home, the almighty line is going up.
It’s September. Their window to make any gains in their counteroffensive has passed. Now they have to fight against the weather on top of the Russians.
They can either surrender now, or surrender when all the able bodied people have been killed for no good reason. Ukraine can no longer win this war.
“Ukraine should surrender so that they can spare their civilian and combatant lives to Russia which totally won’t abuse their land and people as they’ve done in the past”
Ukraine should surrender now while people still have families to come home to, instead of propagating senseless death.
You’re also just making russian demands up? At no point during this war has Russia sought to annex the entirety of Ukraine, which it seems to be whate you are implying they will do.
Please try to remain in reality.
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/putins-war-vanishing-goals#:~:text=So%2C before the start of,of Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts.
You’re linking me to the Woodrow Wilson institute? Lmao get the fuck out of here. Whats next, radio free Russia? If you want a serious answer to what Russia claims just look at what demands they have made - these are the demands negotiations revolve around
So wait. Your criteria for who should win is based on the aftermath… So you think Ukraine should be allowed to complete it’s ethnic cleansing?
What ethnic cleansing?
There were pogroms and mass murders at the ground level and there were laws targeting Russian speakers from the governmental level. The weapons Trump was impeached for tying political favors to were being used against resistance militias. They were being used to bomb facilities built in the soviet era that pump hot water into people’s homes as the local method of heating during the winter. They locked over a hundred people in a building and burned them alive in it. They broke multiple treaties with Russia in order to do all of this. This was the lead up to the war.
Whoop, there it is! I’m quoting that for posterity before you delete this comment.
You’re literally denying an attempted genocide right now, y’know that?
Russia could make that happen, you know. They could pull their forces out. Right now, that would end the conflict.
Do you think we’re in charge of the Russian military? The war is going to end eventually one way or another. We might as well push for the path that preserves Ukrainian lives.
Are we in charge of the Ukrainian military? Not that it really matters, but still.
Russia can unilaterally end the conflict. Ukraine cannot (yet). Calling on Ukrainians to surrender while they still want to defend themselves is cowardice. I would rather support their continued struggle.
And Ukraine could have prevented all of this by simply abiding by the several peace deals they signed before the war started. What’s your point?
Oh, so Russia deciding to invade Ukraine is the fault of the Ukrainians? Cool. Very normal opinion.
You just insulted me with the sole thrust being that I’m not in your echo chamber.
I’m referencing real world events. Do you not believe Ukraine broke both Minsk I and II as a lead up to the war? Do you not have google?
e: And what’s this weasel bullshit where you slipped in ‘Ukrainians’ like I’m going after the citizens and not the government? The Ukrainian people haven’t had a legitimate government since 2014 when the one they actually elected themselves was deposed in a far right western backed coup.
What I think is that it doesn’t matter in the context of an aggressive war against a country that was not threatening Russia.
Minsk I came about after the Russian military had invaded and annexed Ukrainian territory. The first of these two agreements is already taking place after the initial aggression and thus are not really factors in the question of whether Ukraine should defend itself from that aggression.
With that said, Minsk I saw violations on both sides and fell apart for that reason. Minsk II was fundamentally similar to Minsk I and thus was going to struggle to escape the same fate. While the Russians claimed that Ukraine violated the terms of Minsk II, they also claimed that they were not a party to Minsk II and thus were not violating it with their own troop buildup. Of course, they also claim that Ukraine’s supposed violations of Minsk II were justification for further Russian invasion, despite claiming to not be a party to the treaty. That’s some duplicitous behavior and, again, if I were in Ukraine I would not want the Russian military in my country.
All that said, the point that Minsk I and II are not justification for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. They sure as hell were not justification for the initial invasion of Crimea, Luhansk, and Donetsk (not existing yet during those) and they’re not justification of Russia’s continued invasion deeper into Ukraine.
Lol well that’s just a fucking lie. Zelenksy was openly threatening to host nuclear weapons for Nato on the eve of the invasion. Do you have a selective memory or are you just fucking ignorant of the entire history of this conflict and should therefore shut the fuck up?
They didn’t invade; they were already there. The legitimate government of Ukraine leased the naval base to them in Crimea and when the western backed coup government wanted to revoke the lease they simply stayed. Accuse them of squatting.
Well that’s just fucking stupid. Peace treaties don’t count if they came after a war?
Sorry you just lost my attention with that one
Damn too bad they’re not going to do that, so what should we do about that? We support a negotiated settlement to the conflict in order to achieve peace, you support marching every single Ukrainian person into a meat grinder to die. Which of is more right wing?
This isn’t about us. What “we” should do is to support and show solidarity with the side being attacked by an imperialist, dictatorial state and help them defend themselves.
When the Finnish were defending themselves in the Winter War it would not have been just to say “they should just surrender to save their lives”. The Finns did eventually surrender, but only after they had stomped the Soviet army all across Finland. They continued fighting not to die but so that they could live.
The Ukrainians are fighting now not to die but so that they can live in (relative) freedom.
Again, this “we should just capitulate to whatever warmongers want” stuff is shameful and cowardly, doubly so for people on the Left.
Lol of all the examples, you pick another group of Nazis as a favorable point of comparison!! Wtf. Thank GOD the Soviets beat the Finnish Nazis in that war and then went on to beat the German Nazis after that.
Also lmao at calling Ukraine a free country compared to Russia, it’s just as fucked politically even prior to this invasion, now they’ve banned all left wing parties and are putting up statues of Nazis all over the place, fuck off, this has nothing at all to do with freedom.
Finland allied with the Nazis after the Winter War, in an attempt to regain their sovereignty from the USSR. They were not allied with Nazi Germany during the Winter War–and after the war, the leadership of the USSR agreed that Finland was not a particular risk and could be left alone.
Ukraine is a far, far freer country than Russia. Of that there should be no doubt. On what merit, what axis, is Russia a freer society? Perhaps there is one, but Russia today is a corrupt, dictatorial, fascist state whose ruling party routinely imprisons or assassinates its political opposition or just general dissidents. They’re also hardcore anti-gay, among other things.
Ukraine did suspend a number of pro-Russia political parties recently. Even if it was specifically targeting left-wing parties that still pales in comparison to Russia’s treatment of political opposition and let’s not forget that Ukraine is currently waging a defensive war against Russia. Also Zelensky is Jewish so i doubt he is putting up Nazi statues or in favor of doing so. I presume you’re referring to activity of the Azov Battalion or some other group inside Ukraine and while those are dangerous and problematic, the Nazis in the Russian army are (I suspect) a more serious threat to the Ukrainian people right now.
Russia and Ukraine are basically the same politically, except for there are more Nazis in power in Ukraine. Prior to the invasion Ukraine was categorically ranked as the most corrupt country in Europe, Zelensky himself is in the Panama papers, they absolutely are not good on gay rights either, they overthrew their democratically elected president in 2014 in a CIA backed coup to put in a government handpicked by the U.S. (we can listen to Nuland picking the government on leaked phone calls), they’ve banned political opposition and all leftist parties (not pro-Russia, just all leftists. Being leftist generally means having semi sane takes like not wanting everybody in the country to die, so they had to be banned by the Nazi regime).
Also I didn’t say Russia is a free country, but Ukraine is easily just as bad if not worse, it’s a total farce to make this about freedom or democracy or any of that shit. Hell if democracy in Ukraine was real the war wouldn’t be happening, Zelensky was elected to end the conflict in the Donbass, he went to the front lines and told the Nazis to lay down arms and they told him to fuck off lol. You can watch the video of that happening.
imagine dying on the “war is bad” hill. i can agree on that point, and i don’t even need to politically align myself with real shitters and make a fool of myself in pseudo-public to do it!
imagine not thinking war is bad. imagine believing American propaganda given its track record.
Bro, this war is totally different to every other war, bro!
Trust me, bro! I know we got duped into supporting:
The Korean War
The Vietnam War
The war in Iraq
The other war in Iraq
The war in Afghanistan
The war in the Philippines
The war in Guatemala
The war on Cuba
The war in Laos
The war in Cambodia
The war in Somalia
The war in Yemen
The war in Libya
The war in Grenada
The war in Yugoslavia
…but this time it’s an existential threat!! Trust me, bro!
art
“Very” implies you’ve drilled down beyond the very first superficial similarity.
Please offer two things in which we have in common since you’re clearly not just talking out of your ass.