https://lemmy.world/post/16146433
Here’s actual context for anyone who wants it.
The US president is expected to sign the order as early as Tuesday to seal the border with Mexico to migrants when numbers of asylum claimants rise above a daily threshold of 2,500.
But sure, both sides the same, if this time we let fascism win it will totally make us into a left-wing paradise, etc etc etc.
None of these people post with any nuance. It’s all to cripple Biden any way they can. What is their end goal? I’m not happy with everything he does, but we have no other viable option in this election. Everything Biden does bad, Trump will do worse. Biden at least bends to pressure from the left.
My pov is that the threat that is Trump is very convenient to the right wing Democrats like Bidden.
The Democrats aren’t Nazis, they just don’t mind them all that much.
That doesn’t mean “there the same” and that people shouldn’t vote D. They absolutely should because the world may never recover from a second Trump win.
But once the election is over and Trump is hopefully in the past, the establishment should be roasted, “not an actual fascist” is a sickly low standard for an office that rules one of the most powerful nations. The people deserve better and the establishment needs to get the message that we demand better.
Why would they so that though? Every election from now on if going to be this dangerous.
Seems like they have us over a barrel, no?
What is their end goal? We would need to ask their boss, but I don’t speak Russian so…
All people are doing is pointing out shitty things that Biden does. Perhaps he should stop doing those? I don’t know, it just sounds incredibly authoritarian. The way a lot of these neoliberals like yourself are acting like criticism is not allowed.
It’s building up a massive amount of spite to moderates from progressives
Edit : Downvote all you want, but all it’s doing is building up spite and not just me, but basically every other progressive. And then you completely don’t understand why you all are unpopular. Good luck winning the next election. Neoliberals well and truly suck.
Pro tip, stop alienating your electorate. No wonder you guys like Biden so much. Birds of a feather. The party has gone absolutely mad and Its going to bite us all in the ass come election day. None of you are treating this election seriously enough as much as you seem hell bent on turning off progressives.
Edit : Downvote all you want, but all it’s doing is building up spite and not just me, but basically every other progressive.
Funny. Every progressive I know is hell-bent on a Biden victory because, even though we’re all well to the left of the left-wing of the Democratic Party, much less some centrist like Biden, we aren’t ghouls who desire our fellow Americans to suffer under a fascist regime, especially not out of ‘spite’ over being downvoted on an internet forum.
I always thought my experience with other progressives was the norm, but maybe there’s some evidence you’ve got that suggests otherwise.
That’s because your friends aren’t Russian agents
All people are doing is pointing out shitty things that Biden does. Perhaps she should stop doing those? I don’t know, it just sounds incredibly authoritarian. The way a lot of these neoliberals like yourself are acting like criticism is not allowed.
It’s building up a massive amount of spite to moderates.
Yes, that is the position of the American moderate. Clearly, the American moderate is upset at stricter immigration policy.
Have you talked to an American moderate in your life?
The reason the right keeps kicking the left’s ass is because they band together for their end goal instead of picking each other apart in an election year. I’ve been leftist my whole life, I’m no neo-liberal as you state just for seeing the truth of this election. What is your solution? Is pissing on Biden every chance going to do anything to fix these policies? If we get Trump, do you see immigration getting better? Biden is getting pummeled in the polls for his perceived weakness on the border. He lightened the rules after he won last time and Republicans have been crucifying him on border security since and it’s getting traction in polls. Sometimes in a democracy, you have to make some concessions to keep the power to make change in your hands. How far has the strategy of purism gotten the left? This country has swung so much further right due to leftist infighting losing us elections. Now we have a right wing candidate with a plan to straight up end democracy, but still we are calling each other “not leftist enough” instead of focusing on the real enemies of progressivism.
The solution is for Biden to stop putting his foot in his mouth at this critical moment. THAT is what I find so offensive about this whole ordeal.
Its like you all have given up on that possibility, which makes defnsing him offensive.
You know he sucks, but we just have to deal with it?
We arent going to go left by engaing in right wing immigration tactics.
Why pretend to be a progressive?
Hilariously this reminds me of all the “RINO” talk for anyone not fellating Trump.
Any other choice ways of saying bOtH sIdEs?
Saying both sides are the same or equally dangerous is absolutely counterproductive, I don’t do it. Pointing out that both sides can fall victim to the same kind of tribalism and that someone is using almost the exact same reasoning as a conservative to dismiss valid concerns from their own party is not “both sides bad”.
Do think there are any similarities between both sides, or are they different in every way that you can see?
They are similar in that they both receive money from corporations, and they both are resistant to change. Notice how I mentioned specifics, instead of trying to demoralize people so they don’t vote by spouting vague bullshit about how they are “the same”.
This is exactly what im talking about.
That doesn’t change the fact that it still severely increases the difficulty to seek asylum.
Right, but that’s the thing, the Overton window is so far right that these moderate Democrats genuinely like these rightward policies. We all think we are agreeing on the same principle that human rights matter. I don’t think we are.
I mean for God’s sake, I’m watching self-proported liberals praising right wing immigration policy all because they want their guy to look better.
I’m watching self-proported liberals praising right wing immigration policy all because they want their guy to look better.
When/where?
This very thread.
I read most of the thread and saw zero praise anywhere
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We agree you’re full of fucking shit
It’s not the only policy being doubled down on
“Both sides are the same” is not the argument here. It’s “militarized and cruel border policies are bipartisan”.
edit: I should also mention: there’s a real pressure building here. Not only are our south and central-american policies creating refugees and mass migration, but increasingly climate disasters, too. Clamping down on the boarder is the reactive thing to do in response to the number of migrants showing up, but the real work needs to be assessing broader international policy and aid to our southern neighbors, and that’s another policy area where the current administration seems stuck in the past
So “inhumane treatment” is fine if you hit a certain number.
Got it.
This subcommunity is in Neo-liberal shit-rag. Honestly, I don’t know why any of us are here. Should just block them already.
Your should join Hexbear and live in your safe space instead
Its not about safe spaces. Im freaking tired of moderates throwing this election instead of championing an ounce of progressive reform.
Im watching a trainwreck slowly coming to an end. Problem is that Im on the train.
They don’t care.
The alternative is that all of you are pissed too and are just upset that Im speaking the obvious.
I guess all of this talk of my being a faux progressive is because people agree with my critcism here?
Thats all I want, is for you to admit Biden is a crappy candidate who is alienating voters.
If you want to vote harm reduction, fine, but dont act like he doesnt suck.
I’ll bite. He sucks. Now what?
Well, you see, all those people saying they aren’t voting for Biden but against Trump secretly love Biden and can’t see that he sucks. I’m just pointing out their obvious hypocrisy of them being forced to do what they said they’d be doing rather than what we both know that they secretly wanted to actually be doing! /s
I… I think I just channeled Warmbo. I might need a bath after that
And back then people who complained that there were few differences between the candidates were attacked and ridiculed.
Probably because you are and were absolutely full of shit
Sorry sir Biden is good and only Trump bad so I downvoted your may may. Please learn the rules before posting.
Asylum != Immigration. You’re dude is just trying to rile you up. Go ahead, don’t vote.
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BoTh SiDeS
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If you don’t like Biden and don’t wanna support trump, the party for socialism and liberation is running Claudia de la Cruz for president on a platform of immigrants rights.
You can vote for something you actually want this November.
I really really wish doing so made a difference.
It does. It shows the Democrats they can’t do Republican.
Even if Biden wins he will be rewarded for being a massive Zionist sellout and all Democrats will keep doing it. If they see it costs them votes they will refrain from doing so in the future.
Now bring up the “democracy ends in 2024 so there’s no 2028 meme” again.
It will help Trump get reelected, that’s a difference, right?
It does. Not only does it help the party I support by giving them more access to funding, ballot presence, media appearances and raising public awareness of their very presence and platform, it shows the two major parties what votes they’re leaving on the table when they abandon the ideas I support.
If you want a concrete example of a third party making a huge difference, Perot ‘92 is pretty undeniable. His campaign raised awareness of and rendered nafta, which passed with bipartisan consensus, an unpopular policy and ensured its replacement with an agreement that would at least be talked about as significantly different. His campaign was also found years after the fact to have not been a spoiler and to have actually hurt Clinton’s victory margin most of all.
That’s not really viable in the US voting system. You need a third party that concentrates on a smaller number of voters to get some seats. The president is a single winner first past the post so voting in primaries is the only way to vote for something you want.
There’s still a case where forcing republicans to take a more centrist approach by beating them consistently is good. Then dems would need to diversify with better policies.
Voting system in the US is pure garbage. You’ll need a lot of independents to get ranked choice, then proportional voting system to have any real choice.
That’s not true unless you only consider the effects of winning a race to be viable under the us election system.
Even if a third party candidate doesn’t win, their ballot showing gives them access to funding, event presence, media coverage, public awareness and of course shows other parties exactly what votes they’re leaving on the table.
Republicans have not moved to the center due to pressure from democrats in 40 years. The idea is the other way around, that the ratchet effect is a constant movement to the right and democrats only keep the policy from “slipping” back to the left.
I agree that the voting system is garbage, but we don’t need to wait for election reform that will never come to support parties, platforms and candidates that we actually support. As I said earlier, that choice gets results, those results just might not be the ones you want.
“If you want to throw away your vote and usher in a fascist dictator, vote for me!”
But hey, you’ll feel warm and fuzzy inside knowing you didn’t vote for mean ol Joe.
Here I go again on my own, explaining how the American electoral system works to people saying third party votes don’t matter. Like a drifter I was born to walk alone, but I’ve made up my mind, I ain’t wasting no more time:
Votes for third party candidates ensure that they get access to funding, ballot and event presence, media coverage and increase public awareness.
Possibly most importantly, they show the two major parties precisely how many votes they’re leaving on the table and in what districts when they ignore those policies and platforms.
Also to borrow a turn of phrase: she’s electable if you vote for her.
Imma take a second and address the fascist dictator part: you don’t actually believe that. I know because you saw what happened last time trump wasn’t declared the winner of an election, most likely know about operation 2025, the plan to gain full control over administrative state power and exercise executive power to accomplish a big list of goals, and can put two and two together.
If you recognize the preceding facts and don’t think we’re getting January 6: the sequel: this time there’s been more than a month of planning and preparation, I don’t know what to say.
If you believe it’s a real deal, actual factual plan to usher in a fascist dictator you’d be preparing to fight brownshirts in the streets, not haranguing people who still believe in an American future for encouraging third party votes.
It’s astounding to me that a call to vote for a literal communist party gets met with someone saying “nuh uh, we gotta vote against fascism!” every time.
Just vote for yourself, that’s the candidate you agree with the most and whose chance to become President is the same as any other American third party.
Tfw u understand voting and parties.
