Tribalism is the real problem and the echo chambers are where it’s fostered. The inability to see a fact, event, or report clearly without blue-tinted glasses can stand in the way of progress.
Of course a segment of the right has some weird issues with accepting science as fact – or facts as facts. It wasn’t long ago this fringe population was ignored and isolated while mainstream middle America politics existed (relatively) out in the open. The echo chamber everyone is living in right now is this - social media. This is not reality. This is not you and I sitting down and having a face-to-face chat about our lives and experiences and how we can agree and disagree on things regardless of who we’ve voted for.
Our extreme political polarization exists because of the internet. The internet is not where we’re going to solve this problem. Just because we generally all agree that “the left” is right correct, arguing over facts and truths with people who’s primary objective is to reject them is not going to foster progress. Arguing over what laws should exist in one state and not another and if the Constitution even allows for such laws is not going to be resolved in a Xweet. You may win the battle but the war will certainly carry on without you.
The “dem echo chamber” is made up of virtue signaling propaganda (as is MAGA). It’s selling rally towels outside a football game and people are just there to have a good time cheering along for their team. The teams are dressed in red and blue but the QB is still rich and the D-Line is still poor.
I also feel like the left’s use of social media to call out the stupidity and malice and atrocities of the right strengthens the right’s defenses and their numbers. What in the past may have been a small story in a local paper now can become an international headline within minutes. I generally think this is a good thing but there’s a lot of overly sensitive people who feel like the internet is reality and they can be susceptible to intimidation and bullying. As the echo bounces around the left’s chamber, the right aren’t getting weaker, they’re getting stronger.
“Facts” aside, I see very little difference in the echo chambers and tribalism.
Which brings us to the right’s issue with facts. To be brief, there was a study that showed brains of conservatives are actually a little different than those of liberals. Conservatives are more protective. They’re afraid of change and threats to their families and communities. They have real not-invalid concerns. So, when presented with actual facts and science that attack their stance and weaken their protections, they’re going to fight harder, even is that means using “fantasy” as their reality to “prove” you wrong.
The problem with these echo chambers and tribalism is that people are locking themselves in and forgoing real world conversations that involve vulnerability, humility, and negotiations. No one is interested in taking the time to give the other person a chance to step outside their echo chamber. All they want is to be right and to convince the other they’re wrong.
Now, to be fair, I do not have an answer as to what to do about literal textbook definition fascists trying to take control of our government. If I were a more well educated about WWII, I might have an idea about what not to do.
People have called me out in the past for being an idealist and that I’m not considering the reality of the situation. I feel pretty strongly that the issue is people not stepping outside their echo chambers to take a look at the reality they actually have control over. I also feel very strongly that Ranked Choice Voting would quell the vast majority of the polarization found in politics and social issues.
All they want is to be right and to convince the other they’re wrong.
Beyond convincing them they’re wrong, it can seem they want the righteous vindication of a concession. They want their opposing interlocutor to proclaim the error of their ways and denounce their former position. It can lead to just beating down an opponent to the point they don’t even reflect on the full discourse. Sometimes you need to make some solid points and leave it at that. When people are flat out denying facts they usually fall into one of two groups. The first group are the Fucker Carlsons and Bitch McConnells of the world. They know they’re lying and pointing out facts won’t matter. The other group is people who haven’t employed much critical thinking to the “facts” the first group provides. Either they’ve fully committed to the lies and are lost causes, they haven’t had the time to truly flesh out their positions, or they might categorically lack the mental faculties to use critical thinking.
For the former group, they are playing their role and won’t change no matter how foolproof your argument. So putting out facts at the forefront can help to have that information available to contrast the propaganda should someone from the latter group see.
For the latter group, no one wants to be wrong. So being systematically shown to have been duped and lied to can cause some pretty typical defense mechanisms. Enter cognitive dissonance. So making a few points and trying to not be abrasive or confrontational can set them a little more at ease. You need to allow them some time to process. Trying to force some “win” can cause them to just dig in deeper to their preconceived notions. Then it’s harder to pull them out.
My general approach to someone whom I’m having a face-to-face discussion with is to ask questions. Tell me why you feel this way and how your ideas solve a (perceived) problem. Then I try to lead them outside the box and think with a broader brush. Is this really the solution to the problem or a solution looking for a problem.
But, frankly, more often I just get a better sense of where they’re coming from and I find that we’re not so different. We have different ideas about tangible things but when you step further back, we have a lot more in common. It’s these echo chambers that give a distorted focus on our ideologies.
I find that this is when our true core difference become more apparent. And here is where we can start having real discussions and negotiations about framework and policy. When you can find some respect for someone, you might find you want to help them, even if you never vote for the same representative. We do’t need to agree with each other but we should offer to help one another.
Yeah… complete lack of respect for one another may actually be the greatest threat to our democracy. People don’t even want to consider offering respect to someone who doesn’t respect them first. I genuinely don’t think a lot of people even know what respect means anymore. Treat people like you want to be treated.
When I was in third grade I was to catechism classes and had my first communion. The whole time I’m going I’m like, but what about Judaism and Buddhism, and Islam, and the Native American and Roman and Greek and Aztec gods? Who says Catholicism is the “right” religion? Granted, these are philosophies based in fantasy but the point I’m trying to make is that it’s extremely easy to stay within your echo chamber and not question what’s right or wrong or truth or fiction. The liberals love to lean on science to prove themselves right but they’re also the same people who wear “free range” as a crown when the chickens are still living in shit and believe paper and reusable bags are better than plastic bags (its complicated).
Everyone is a product of propaganda / marketing / branding / advertising / political and religious greed / The Algorithm.
All we will ever truly have is each other.
Make peace with it.
It’s not about “dem echo chambers” to me it’s about echo chambers in general. The problems I think they cause are more devision, less ability to reflect on held beliefs, and make it difficult to have conversations or debates with those who old different beliefs. Again this is specific to echo chambers in general.
My brain has stopped functioning since this AM 🤣 but that’s fair re: “echo chambers in general” - just the “both sides” rhetoric and the specific questions about “dem echo chambers” had me wondering what specific problematic issues were stemming from that. I was gonna be specific but I can no longer find/follow the convo - Oy old age ig - thank for taking the time to answer.
You have fallen into one of the liberal echo chamber traps. I like to think these traps were born of genuinely good intent and have simply been overused. An issue that liberal echo chambers can have is bad faith actors trolling the various forums and social media. For example, an unabashedly “pro-life” conservative wading into the topic of abortion calling themselves “pro-choice”. Then they start Just Asking Questions and ultimately reveal they think the choice should be to not have sex. And once someone is pregnant, they’ve made a choice and now must live with the consequences.
So liberals have these “traps” that started as somewhat of a defense mechanism. Rather than waste time attempting to truly flesh out a position with someone acting in bad faith, they will begin the process by sort of vetting the person. If you ask the “wrong questions” or provide the “wrong answers”, you’ll be effectively labeled a bad faith person. This will be evident initially by a flurry of downvotes on a few comments. Once the avalanche has started, it’s hard to avoid. People will barely peruse your comments and follow the judgement that you are acting in bad faith.
It makes it impossible to play devil’s advocate or really dig deep on topics that have tons of nuance and layers. Once a comment chain gets long enough maybe 1 or 2 other people will still follow it. If you’ve been judged earlier on, any valid points or questions you proffer will be ignored and/or downvoted.
FWIW I’ve come to describe myself as “horrifically liberal”. Even given that, I have been downvoted to oblivion on topics where I didn’t pass whatever purity test the first few viewers required.
Edit: as you can see, I’ve already been downvoted. Basically proving exactly what I said in my post.
and ultimately reveal they think the choice should be to not have sex. And once someone is pregnant, they’ve made a choice and now must live with the consequences.
This is unironically the most common view on men and reproduction.
One of the voices contrary to it was the fourth national president of the National Organization for Women, Karen De Crow. She had a bunch views that are still considered controversial today, like that cases of contested child custody should start from a position that shared custody is best for the child unless there’s a reason it should be otherwise (this is actually law in two states now) or that “If a woman makes a unilateral decision to bring pregnancy to term, and the biological father does not, and cannot, share in this decision, he should not be liable for 21 years of support… autonomous women making independent decisions about their lives should not expect men to finance their choice.” That quote is from a case where she represented a man who was trying to get his child support order vacated because the mother had lied to him about her contraceptive use.
Speaking of contraceptives, if a form of male contraceptive ever reaches market whose use is not visibly apparent to his partner (say vasalgel), I fully expect to see lots of talk online from feminist spaces about how a man not being honest about whether or not he is using said contraceptive is sexual assault in exactly the way it isn’t for a woman to do the same thing with the options available to her.
It sure would be easier to counter that idea if the republicans’ leading contender for speaker of the house wasn’t someone who described himself as “David Duke without the baggage”. I guess technically the former grand wizard of the KKK wasn’t a literal nazi, but that doesn’t seem like a hair worth splitting.
but that doesn’t seem like a hair worth splitting.
I see you’ve not argued with many conservatives. They’ll split the hair until there’s nothing left. I’m surprised none have won a Nobel prize for splitting subatomic particles, as that’s how far they’ll take it.
The longest serving Senator in history (and the man in second place for longest total time serving in Congress between both houses) was a Democrat but merely an exalted cyclops in the KKK (if I understand the organizational structure right, grand wizard is like a national president while exalted cyclops is more like a chapter president?). He also filibustered the Civil Rights Act. Again, Democrat - spent much of the late 70s to late 80s as either Majority Leader or Minority Leader as appropriate. Biden gave him a eulogy.
So is the lesson here that Republicans pick higher ranking KKK members for leadership positions than Democrats will?
Man, you’re reaching back 40 to 50 years to find an equivalence in the Democratic Party. A lot can change in half a century. It’s also worth noting that Byrd renounced his KKK membership later in life.
I’m pointing out that just 2 days ago, a majority of the republicans in the house voted in favor of a speaker who compares himself favorably to a former KKK leader.
Well, those “literal nazis” are part of your government and have a vote just like anyone else. You can wish them away, whine and bitch about them, or work with them where there is common ground.
In the case of both sides (yes I said it - deal) the partisans have chosen option’s A and B. Just bitch and whine and refuse to work together. It’s cathartic for partisans - but not great for those of us who want a functioning government.
This is where you complain about how “Republicans did it first do you really think they will work with us they all lie and always go back on their word and they want a fascist state so working with fascists means you’re a fascist something something fascist bar something something paradox of intolerance”.
What do you feel are the problematic issues stemming from the “dem echo chamber”?
Oooh, can I play?
Tribalism is the real problem and the echo chambers are where it’s fostered. The inability to see a fact, event, or report clearly without blue-tinted glasses can stand in the way of progress.
Of course a segment of the right has some weird issues with accepting science as fact – or facts as facts. It wasn’t long ago this fringe population was ignored and isolated while mainstream middle America politics existed (relatively) out in the open. The echo chamber everyone is living in right now is this - social media. This is not reality. This is not you and I sitting down and having a face-to-face chat about our lives and experiences and how we can agree and disagree on things regardless of who we’ve voted for.
Our extreme political polarization exists because of the internet. The internet is not where we’re going to solve this problem. Just because we generally all agree that “the left” is
rightcorrect, arguing over facts and truths with people who’s primary objective is to reject them is not going to foster progress. Arguing over what laws should exist in one state and not another and if the Constitution even allows for such laws is not going to be resolved in a Xweet. You may win the battle but the war will certainly carry on without you.The “dem echo chamber” is made up of virtue signaling propaganda (as is MAGA). It’s selling rally towels outside a football game and people are just there to have a good time cheering along for their team. The teams are dressed in red and blue but the QB is still rich and the D-Line is still poor.
I also feel like the left’s use of social media to call out the stupidity and malice and atrocities of the right strengthens the right’s defenses and their numbers. What in the past may have been a small story in a local paper now can become an international headline within minutes. I generally think this is a good thing but there’s a lot of overly sensitive people who feel like the internet is reality and they can be susceptible to intimidation and bullying. As the echo bounces around the left’s chamber, the right aren’t getting weaker, they’re getting stronger.
“Facts” aside, I see very little difference in the echo chambers and tribalism.
Which brings us to the right’s issue with facts. To be brief, there was a study that showed brains of conservatives are actually a little different than those of liberals. Conservatives are more protective. They’re afraid of change and threats to their families and communities. They have real not-invalid concerns. So, when presented with actual facts and science that attack their stance and weaken their protections, they’re going to fight harder, even is that means using “fantasy” as their reality to “prove” you wrong.
The problem with these echo chambers and tribalism is that people are locking themselves in and forgoing real world conversations that involve vulnerability, humility, and negotiations. No one is interested in taking the time to give the other person a chance to step outside their echo chamber. All they want is to be right and to convince the other they’re wrong.
Now, to be fair, I do not have an answer as to what to do about literal textbook definition fascists trying to take control of our government. If I were a more well educated about WWII, I might have an idea about what not to do.
People have called me out in the past for being an idealist and that I’m not considering the reality of the situation. I feel pretty strongly that the issue is people not stepping outside their echo chambers to take a look at the reality they actually have control over. I also feel very strongly that Ranked Choice Voting would quell the vast majority of the polarization found in politics and social issues.
Beyond convincing them they’re wrong, it can seem they want the righteous vindication of a concession. They want their opposing interlocutor to proclaim the error of their ways and denounce their former position. It can lead to just beating down an opponent to the point they don’t even reflect on the full discourse. Sometimes you need to make some solid points and leave it at that. When people are flat out denying facts they usually fall into one of two groups. The first group are the Fucker Carlsons and Bitch McConnells of the world. They know they’re lying and pointing out facts won’t matter. The other group is people who haven’t employed much critical thinking to the “facts” the first group provides. Either they’ve fully committed to the lies and are lost causes, they haven’t had the time to truly flesh out their positions, or they might categorically lack the mental faculties to use critical thinking.
For the former group, they are playing their role and won’t change no matter how foolproof your argument. So putting out facts at the forefront can help to have that information available to contrast the propaganda should someone from the latter group see.
For the latter group, no one wants to be wrong. So being systematically shown to have been duped and lied to can cause some pretty typical defense mechanisms. Enter cognitive dissonance. So making a few points and trying to not be abrasive or confrontational can set them a little more at ease. You need to allow them some time to process. Trying to force some “win” can cause them to just dig in deeper to their preconceived notions. Then it’s harder to pull them out.
I agree with this.
My general approach to someone whom I’m having a face-to-face discussion with is to ask questions. Tell me why you feel this way and how your ideas solve a (perceived) problem. Then I try to lead them outside the box and think with a broader brush. Is this really the solution to the problem or a solution looking for a problem.
But, frankly, more often I just get a better sense of where they’re coming from and I find that we’re not so different. We have different ideas about tangible things but when you step further back, we have a lot more in common. It’s these echo chambers that give a distorted focus on our ideologies.
I find that this is when our true core difference become more apparent. And here is where we can start having real discussions and negotiations about framework and policy. When you can find some respect for someone, you might find you want to help them, even if you never vote for the same representative. We do’t need to agree with each other but we should offer to help one another.
Yeah… complete lack of respect for one another may actually be the greatest threat to our democracy. People don’t even want to consider offering respect to someone who doesn’t respect them first. I genuinely don’t think a lot of people even know what respect means anymore. Treat people like you want to be treated.
When I was in third grade I was to catechism classes and had my first communion. The whole time I’m going I’m like, but what about Judaism and Buddhism, and Islam, and the Native American and Roman and Greek and Aztec gods? Who says Catholicism is the “right” religion? Granted, these are philosophies based in fantasy but the point I’m trying to make is that it’s extremely easy to stay within your echo chamber and not question what’s right or wrong or truth or fiction. The liberals love to lean on science to prove themselves right but they’re also the same people who wear “free range” as a crown when the chickens are still living in shit and believe paper and reusable bags are better than plastic bags (its complicated).
Everyone is a product of propaganda / marketing / branding / advertising / political and religious greed / The Algorithm.
All we will ever truly have is each other.
Make peace with it.
It’s not about “dem echo chambers” to me it’s about echo chambers in general. The problems I think they cause are more devision, less ability to reflect on held beliefs, and make it difficult to have conversations or debates with those who old different beliefs. Again this is specific to echo chambers in general.
My brain has stopped functioning since this AM 🤣 but that’s fair re: “echo chambers in general” - just the “both sides” rhetoric and the specific questions about “dem echo chambers” had me wondering what specific problematic issues were stemming from that. I was gonna be specific but I can no longer find/follow the convo - Oy old age ig - thank for taking the time to answer.
You have fallen into one of the liberal echo chamber traps. I like to think these traps were born of genuinely good intent and have simply been overused. An issue that liberal echo chambers can have is bad faith actors trolling the various forums and social media. For example, an unabashedly “pro-life” conservative wading into the topic of abortion calling themselves “pro-choice”. Then they start Just Asking Questions and ultimately reveal they think the choice should be to not have sex. And once someone is pregnant, they’ve made a choice and now must live with the consequences.
So liberals have these “traps” that started as somewhat of a defense mechanism. Rather than waste time attempting to truly flesh out a position with someone acting in bad faith, they will begin the process by sort of vetting the person. If you ask the “wrong questions” or provide the “wrong answers”, you’ll be effectively labeled a bad faith person. This will be evident initially by a flurry of downvotes on a few comments. Once the avalanche has started, it’s hard to avoid. People will barely peruse your comments and follow the judgement that you are acting in bad faith.
It makes it impossible to play devil’s advocate or really dig deep on topics that have tons of nuance and layers. Once a comment chain gets long enough maybe 1 or 2 other people will still follow it. If you’ve been judged earlier on, any valid points or questions you proffer will be ignored and/or downvoted.
FWIW I’ve come to describe myself as “horrifically liberal”. Even given that, I have been downvoted to oblivion on topics where I didn’t pass whatever purity test the first few viewers required.
Edit: as you can see, I’ve already been downvoted. Basically proving exactly what I said in my post.
This is unironically the most common view on men and reproduction.
One of the voices contrary to it was the fourth national president of the National Organization for Women, Karen De Crow. She had a bunch views that are still considered controversial today, like that cases of contested child custody should start from a position that shared custody is best for the child unless there’s a reason it should be otherwise (this is actually law in two states now) or that “If a woman makes a unilateral decision to bring pregnancy to term, and the biological father does not, and cannot, share in this decision, he should not be liable for 21 years of support… autonomous women making independent decisions about their lives should not expect men to finance their choice.” That quote is from a case where she represented a man who was trying to get his child support order vacated because the mother had lied to him about her contraceptive use.
Speaking of contraceptives, if a form of male contraceptive ever reaches market whose use is not visibly apparent to his partner (say vasalgel), I fully expect to see lots of talk online from feminist spaces about how a man not being honest about whether or not he is using said contraceptive is sexual assault in exactly the way it isn’t for a woman to do the same thing with the options available to her.
The idea that all Republicans are literal Nazis who can’t be worked with.
It sure would be easier to counter that idea if the republicans’ leading contender for speaker of the house wasn’t someone who described himself as “David Duke without the baggage”. I guess technically the former grand wizard of the KKK wasn’t a literal nazi, but that doesn’t seem like a hair worth splitting.
I see you’ve not argued with many conservatives. They’ll split the hair until there’s nothing left. I’m surprised none have won a Nobel prize for splitting subatomic particles, as that’s how far they’ll take it.
The longest serving Senator in history (and the man in second place for longest total time serving in Congress between both houses) was a Democrat but merely an exalted cyclops in the KKK (if I understand the organizational structure right, grand wizard is like a national president while exalted cyclops is more like a chapter president?). He also filibustered the Civil Rights Act. Again, Democrat - spent much of the late 70s to late 80s as either Majority Leader or Minority Leader as appropriate. Biden gave him a eulogy.
So is the lesson here that Republicans pick higher ranking KKK members for leadership positions than Democrats will?
Man, you’re reaching back 40 to 50 years to find an equivalence in the Democratic Party. A lot can change in half a century. It’s also worth noting that Byrd renounced his KKK membership later in life.
I’m pointing out that just 2 days ago, a majority of the republicans in the house voted in favor of a speaker who compares himself favorably to a former KKK leader.
Well, those “literal nazis” are part of your government and have a vote just like anyone else. You can wish them away, whine and bitch about them, or work with them where there is common ground.
In the case of both sides (yes I said it - deal) the partisans have chosen option’s A and B. Just bitch and whine and refuse to work together. It’s cathartic for partisans - but not great for those of us who want a functioning government.
This is where you complain about how “Republicans did it first do you really think they will work with us they all lie and always go back on their word and they want a fascist state so working with fascists means you’re a fascist something something fascist bar something something paradox of intolerance”.
Just to be clear, your primary issue with
is not the association of Republicans with Nazis, but that Democrats should be more willing work with the Nazi politicians?
Compromising with people that want you dead, just makes you dead.
No no no, it only makes you half dead. Successful compromise!