I know this is a controversial take but regular Alcoholics Anonymous is also a bit of a cult. It does a lot of good but there are aspects of it that donāt sit right with me.
My dad became a radically different person after attending AA, and not all for the better. He became deeply religious and a bit paranoid. He called me once and told me I should hide ramen noodles and bottled water under my bed and to not tell my roommate about it. That was meant for me when the world ended. He started donating money to some kind of Jewish/Israeli fund.
He quit his job out of nowhere and then didnāt go back to work at all, living in the remains of his retirement fund. He died about a year later at the age of 50.
Iām sure he has his own mental health issues and that behavior wasnāt all from attending AA, but my sister and I do believe AA contributed to some of it.
Iām glad it works for some people. I donāt want to discourage anyone from seeking help, but choose who you follow with caution.
I think the reputation is partially earned. Iāve been in a few AA and AA-like groups over the years, and while I wouldnāt say that AA itself is a cult, there are cults that use AA and similar recovery groups as recruiting grounds, and itās very possible that your dad got caught up in one of those. The sudden taking up of a new and very specific charitable cause is a big red flag.
Hard agree with your last point. I was fortunate enough to (eventuallyā¦) find a network of peers that helped me and I am doing much better now than I was, but it is a bitter truth that there are people who will find you when youāre at your lowest and most vulnerable, and exploit you. Iām sorry your dad wasnāt able to get the help he needed ā¤ļø
Its not a controversial take, lots of us in the sober community donāt mesh with AA. I would never bash another persons path to sobriety, but the way they look at people who get sober working the steps vs people who chose other paths doesnāt sit great with me. I also donāt like the direction AA steers people to feel helplessness around addiction and giving your recovery to a āhigher powerā. But like I said - what works for some may not work for others, and I would never stop anyone from finding and walking the right path to recovery from them, as I have for myself.
If you see this and you are looking to experience sobriety and you are not feeling like AA is for you, there is lots of options out there like, Allen Carrās Easyway, SMART recovery and Recovery Dharma just to name a few. But also please if you are struggling, feel free to DM me. I am always happy to talk.
Itās not unheard of, but if AA is a cult itās the dumbest cult ever invented. No dues, go/donāt go, do the steps (āwhich are āsuggestedāā) or donāt, donāt give your right name - shit if all cults worked like that theyād have to invent something else.
That said, some AA people are too Jesusy or big-book-y or frankly just bog standard racist or whatever and shouldnāt be held as representative.
Itās the case that a lot of people self-medicate with alcohol, then give up alcohol and donāt address the reason they were self-medicating appropriately. Basically becoming sober-and-unmedicated. Which aināt great.
AA is from the 1930ās when the options were death, jail, or an insane asylum. Itās right to adapt it in places for what works best. People first coming in need solid, decent people to just be there and hang out. But thatās all. After about the first year more-or-less it can become what the person wants out of it.
But this place that Carr was a part of? Thatās super fucked up.
Brendan Carr is a fascist tool, but the anger I hold for him pales in comparison to the incandescent rage I feel for cultists who prey on people struggling with addiction. Exploiting people who are there because they have nowhere else to turn, usually while their life is actively falling apart or recently fallen apart. Turning the vulnerable into tools in their goddamn pyramid schemes or objects of their power fantasies. Making me feel sympathy for Brendan fucking Carr.
God they are the worst.
This is a wild take about 12 step programs. Are you suggesting its similar to a pyramid scheme because one if its practices is to take a new member under ones wing and do step work?
AA and similar programs are, medically speaking, indistinguishable from telling someone ājust quitā or walking into a church and asking the liturgist for guidance.
Itās great that they work for some, and Iād hate to suggest anyone to give up on what works for them. But AA is historically cult-like with how they talk about their success rate and that is a major issue.
One of my closest friends had a drinking problem, crappy insurance, and was referred to AA. I went as silent support to his first meeting, but the program absolutely did not take and the net result of time spent was disillusioning him from getting any help at all. He went back to the bottle and died a few years later, yet to hear AA describe it his death was because he āfailed the programā and not at all because the program failed to help him.
If your 12 step program helps you and gives you a chance to help others thatās a great and wonderful thing. But AA was founded by a drunk who invented a new label for ādrinks too muchā, and there are people who would have loved longer and healthier lives if their take was less āthis is the one way for allā and more āthis is one way that happened to work for usā.
Its not meant to be on par with medical methods for treatment though. Its not fair to set that as the bar for what we consider effective or not. This is a really nuanced conversation I sadly do not have time to have right now but the influence that program has had on society puts it easily within the top 10 of most positive impacts in the previous century. Millions have found recovery through various 12 step programs (and their spinoffs).
In no universe does any group purporting to help people get to measure itself by a different standard than everyone else. If AA is at all worthwhile they should neither fear medical research into their efficacy nor protest when the measured result is sufficiently lower than their own unprofessional claims.
Let me re-state and expand my complaint : the way AA sells itself does more harm than good. Peer support groups with or without religious overtones are definitely helpful to those they work for, and their fiscal efficiency does make them a great first-try resource for anyone seeking to reduce alcohol consumption. But they do not work for everyone, and the way AA asserts that this failure is always a moral fault of the individual discourages some from seeking other forms of treatment.
I am not even questioning the efficacy of the program for regular adherents, as was done before the 2020 NIH meta-study. My chief and sole complaint is that the way AA portrays itself specifically and āalcoholicsā in general can and does lead some adults suffering from alcohol abuse to abandon any hope of cessation rather than seeking alternative forms of assistance that appear at least as successful for those who continue treatment.
No, I elaborated in another comment but I donāt think 12 step or similar recovery programs are cults themselves. However, there are cults and scam operations that use recovery groups as recruiting grounds, sometimes hosting their own meetings masquerading as recovery programs in order to ensnare new members, as is described in the article.
All alcoholics anonymous groups are a cult.
They find you at your weakest brainwash you to believe in their off-brand Jesus.
Some studies show it doesnāt even aid in recovery from substance abuse.
No, not all of them are cults. Some individual AA groups (as well as other peer support recovery groups) are feeder programs for cults, but not all. AA being christian is incidental to cultism; non-faith-based peer groups can also be cult feeders.
Secondly, āsome studiesā can show a lot of things that arenāt true. IIRC the majority of peer-reviewed research shows that peer support groups like AA usually have a positive impact vs. no peer support. Anecdotally, my peer support networks saved my life, more than once.
Like all peer groups, the group is as good as the peers. Thatās why you gotta shop around and find one where you fit in.
You should move your anti-science stance to the first paragraph so people waste less time reading.
Bet. If you can explain which paragraph is anti-science and why, Iāll move it to the top of my comment.
Secondly, āsome studiesā can show a lot of things that arenāt true. IIRC the majority of peer-reviewed research shows that peer support groups like AA usually have a positive impact vs. no peer support. Anecdotally, my peer support networks saved my life, more than once.
Literally all of this. Distrust in studies, claim that number of studies beats quality and a statement without citation, and then it ends with an anecdote.
None of that is anti science. Thereās no ādistrust in studiesā, unless youāre referring to the distrust in the āsome studiesā you cryptically referenced in your post. Not that you bothered even to cherry pick, but cherry-picked studies can show results that the preponderance of evidence does not support. Nor do I claim that quantity beats quality. Scientific communities are as capable of systemic bias just like any other. However, the preponderance of evidence does cut against your unsourced assertion that peer groups donāt aid in recovery. Lastly ancedotes: they arenāt anti-science, nor are they useless. They are statistically unsuitable for the purposes of drawing conclusions about large populations or general trends, and therefore shouldnāt be used as the basis for broad scientific claims, which is why I did no such thing. They are stories that humans share with one another in casual conversation, and I thought it was one worth sharing here.
And not that you deserve this, making your wild claims with no evidence, but as Exhibit A for the scientificness of my paragraph Iād like to enter into the record the first result when searching for AA meta analyses on pubmed. Relevant sections are presented below.
Main results: We included 27 studies containing 10,565 participants (21 RCTs/quasi-RCTs, 5 non-randomized, and 1 purely economic study). The average age of participants within studies ranged from 34.2 to 51.0 years. AA/TSF was compared with psychological clinical interventions, such as MET and CBT, and other 12-step program variants. ā¦ AA/TSF (manualized) compared to treatments with a different theoretical orientation (e.g. CBT) (randomized/quasi-randomized evidence) RCTs comparing manualized AA/TSF to other clinical interventions (e.g. CBT), showed AA/TSF improves rates of continuous abstinence at 12 months (risk ratio (RR) 1.21, 95% confidence interval (CI)
Thank you, this is very valuable data and discussion.
They didnāt control for AA-only versus AA+Real-Treatment, studies which do almost never show improvement.
The problem with religion is it is ever-pervasive and its followers will do anything to justify it.
There is also a long-running problem with the followup interviews where calling and asking the patient is accepted as evidence, studies which look at longterm recidivism show a darker trend and even then youāre not grasping the full picture.
Of course, effective addiction recovery is very near to my heart, and I care about getting it right. Iād be curious to see which studies youāre pulling from that define AA in opposition to āReal Treatmentā. Most treatments for alcohol addiction are rather hit-or-miss, and all the literature Iām familiar with generally find that combination therapies are more effective than any one therapy alone. Peer recovery groups are āaā therapy, AA is one of them, and they help some people, not all.
AA groups are as religious as their members; some of them are chill about it, many of them are insufferable about it, particularly in the southern US, and I suspect this is a big reason why people wash out of the program. Some of those washouts find their ways to more accepting groups or programs, some do not. I think the widespread attitude of āthe program works if you work itā is a pretty grisly and self-satisfied example of survivorship bias, in AA and a lot of similar programs, propagated by people who found something that works for them and insisting that itās the one true program that should work for everyone. This happens in religious and non-religious groups and it gives people the idea that if they canāt find help in that one group, that they must be broken beyond repair. I struggled with that for a long time before I found my people.
Thatās a bit of a diversion, I donāt want to get into the gritty details of the many things I think are wrong with addiction recovery culture. Suffice to say that peer support groups can help, we havenāt really worked out all the problems with doing it well, and addiction is a hard problem. I think itās worth taking the imperfect tools we have and trying to improve them, rather than throwing them out entirely because they are imperfect.
I mean, I would suggest that the AA has a lot of qualifications that would make it not entirely unreasonable to describe it as a cult.
- regular group meetings
- social coercion to modify behavior and create co-dependence on the group
- āSpiritual but not religiousāā¦ but actually being very religious.
- the removal of personal agency.
- targeting vulnerable and desperate people
Just off the top of my head.
itās not as bad as Teen Challenge, mind, but itās not exactly not-at-all-cult-y
in any case, will any any of us be surprised when Carr gets accused of inappropriate conduct?
Tap for Yeah but
regular group meetings- go or donāt. If you donāt like your meeting, find or make one you do like. Anybody saying different is wrong. Thereās nothing in the big book that says you have to go to meetings. Good meetings are good. Bad meetings are bad.social coercion tomodify behaviorand create co-dependence on the group- Itās real simple, ādonāt drinkā. But if that hasnāt been working by itself, modifying oneās behavior is in fact the goal. āCoercionā and āco-dependenceā should not be a part of it.āSpiritual but not religiousāā¦ but actually being very religious.Before meds this was pretty much all there was. Groups are pretty varied as to how they handle this. But again, if your group is too Jesusy for you, or otherwise not your jam, find a different group. Anytime someone talks about Jesus or āGodā I always think āOkay, good to know: donāt talk to them about thatā. The only point is to allow that maybe your standard thinking patterns maybe arenāt the best authoritative source on how to not drink. Mostly because everyone got there by thinking that.the removal of personal agency.No idea what thatās supposed to be. Are you referencing the āsurrenderā part of being alcoholic? If so thatās a truly misleading way to say it.targeting vulnerable and desperate peopleThis should never happen. Itās always wrong, never endorsed, never intended, never supported by anything about AA. Yes, people do it claiming to be AA but thatās the thing - it aināt. Very specifically.
Thereās nothing in the big book that says you have to go to meetings. Good meetings are good. Bad meetings are bad.
I should have added another bullet point: āadherents lie about their cultā.
In any case, youāre not wrong that the Big Book doesnāt expressly say meetings are required. And no, I didnāt say that it did, either. Both the Big Book (and subsequent publications,) as well as literally every AA group strongly encourages meeting attendance, emphasizes the need for community and unity.
But if that hasnāt been working by itself, modifying oneās behavior is in fact the goal. āCoercionā and āco-dependenceā should not be a part of it.
But it is part of it. that is, in fact, the largest part for why the meetings happen. That itās ostensibly for benevolent reasons doesnāt make it less manipulative, or that the members or whatever are any less dependent on the whole.
āSpiritual but not religiousā ā¦ but actually being very religious. Before meds this was pretty much all there was. Groups are pretty varied as to how they handle this. But again, if your group is too Jesusy for you, or otherwise not your jam, find a different group. Anytime someone talks about Jesus or āGodā I always think āOkay, good to know: donāt talk to them about thatā. The only point is to allow that maybe your standard thinking patterns maybe arenāt the best authoritative source on how to not drink. Mostly because everyone got there by thinking that.And now that the nature of addiction is better understood, and the nature of itās treatment is more effect, perhaps then your cult should just go away and let secular systems take over. The 12 Steps, though, are inherently religious. the first step requires admitting/accepting that one cannot change by oneās on self. 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, and 11 all invoke good to make the change that we are, AA teaches us, powerless to make on our own, and #12 requires the proslytization of that god.
the 12 Traditions donāt make that any better, either.
and thereās been a fair number of court rulings finding specifically that AA is indeed a religious organization. (DeStefano v. Emergency Housing Group, 2014; Jackson v. Nixon, 2014; Hazel v. Crofoot, 2014; Thorne v. Hale, 2009) Most of those lawsuits centered on whether it was appropriate for the government (or government funded entities) to coerce attendance,
the removal of personal agency. No idea what thatās supposed to be. Are you referencing the āsurrenderā part of being alcoholic? If so thatās a truly misleading way to say it.AA teaches that individuals are powerless to change themselves, that is inherently a removal of personal agency. for fucks sakeā¦step one is:
We admitted we were powerless over alcoholāthat our lives had become unmanageable.
When people speak of religious trauma, and especially āchristian shameā; this is what people are talking about. that inability, that inadequacy is deeply harmful.
targeting vulnerable and desperate people This should never happen. Itās always wrong, never endorsed, never intended, never supported by anything about AA. Yes, people do it claiming to be AA but thatās the thing - it aināt. Very specifically.AA targets alcoholics who are desirous of becoming sober. They recognize it as a problem, which is great. Many who seek help with that, though are vulnerable. Desperate to make a change, willing to do almost anything, and easily manipulated.
This is an inherent aspect of AAās religious nature. Itās ingrained into the structure. Itās fundamentally manipulative, and sleezy. And sure, the purpose may be benevolent. There certainly are people leading AA groups that absouletly only want their members to attain sobriety. but this inherent manipulate nature, this targeting of vulnerable people, and the leadership roles create a power dynamic that is attractive to certain kinds of people.
And those kinds of people arenāt benevolent. Itās inevitable that something lie Brendan Carrās AA sex cult happens. Itās inevitable that there will be hundreds of others using that power dynamic to take advantage of, and abuse, the vulnerable people coming to those meetings.
And there is nothing that can salvage that problem, because AA only works by manipulation, and by removing peer pressure, and by stripping agency from vulnerable people, and creating a dependence on the group itself.
I should have added another bullet point: āadherents lie about their cultā.
Oh, I see, itās like that, huh. Okay well I acknowledge your agenda is without good faith, and weāll get to calling each other worthless pieces of shit shortly. I should have added āDonāt start no shit, wonāt be no shit.ā So letās go.
Both the Big Book (and subsequent publications,) as well as literally every AA group strongly encourages meeting attendance, emphasizes the need for community and unity.
Goddamn, youāve cracked the fucking secret code of a recovery group - to . . . meet . . . as a . . group!. Holy shit it was staring us in the face the whole fucking time! Diabolical. Look, you wanna latch on to some poor bastard and make your significant problems theirs to work out, go for it but theyāre much harder to come by. Meetings usually let anyone in, and most even list when other people are gonna be there. Chilling!
āCoercionā and āco-dependenceā should not be a part of it.
But it is part of it. that is, in fact, the largest part for why the meetings happen.
You lying sack of shit.
coercionĀ /kÅ-Ć»rā²zhÉn, -shÉn/
noun
- Power or ability to coerce.Ā \
- The application to another of either physical or moral force. When the force is physical, and cannot be resisted, then the act produced by it is a nullity, so far as concerns the party coerced. When the force is moral, then the act, though voidable, is imputable to the party doing it, unless he be so paralyzed by terror as to act convulsively. At the same time coercion is not negatived by the fact of submission under force. \
- Actual orĀ threatenedĀ force for the purpose ofĀ compellingĀ action by another person; the act ofĀ coercing.
Codependency In psychology, codependency is a theory that attempts to explain imbalanced relationships where one person enables another personās self-destructive behavior, such as addiction, poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, or under-achievement.Ā Definitions of codependency vary, but typically include high self-sacrifice, a focus on othersā needs, suppression of oneās own emotions, and attempts to control or fix other peopleās problems.Ā People who self-identify as codependent are more likely to have low self-esteem, but it is unclear whether this is a cause or an effect of characteristics associated with codependency
Youāre saying this is what the meetings are for huh? Fuck you. You go to a meeting, you hear people talk, you decide if any of it means anything to you. Oh, You went to a meeting where some asshole stared you down and told you you needed to get on your knees and pray? Tell that shithead to shut the fuck up! If that works for them great - if that works for you, great - but if not, tell them fuck no, and/or find a different meeting. Itās that fucking simple.
Shove your coercion and codependence up your ignorant ass, chief.
And now that the nature of addiction is better understood, and the nature of itās treatment is more effect, perhaps then your cult should just go away and let secular systems take over.
Oh, absolutely the nature of its treatment is more effect, no doubt. I mean, who could disagree with that. The nature of addiction treatment is SO effect. Itās effect as fuck. Thatās why thereās no more addiction. My āsystemā is secular as fuck, fuck you very much. Also, you keep calling it a cult, so why not eat shit and die?
The 12 Steps, though, are inherently religious. the first step requires admitting/accepting that one cannot change by oneās on self. 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, and 11Ā allĀ invoke good to make the change that we are, AA teaches us, powerless to make on our own, and #12 requires the proslytization of that god.
Goddamn youāre a stupid sonofabitch so Iām not going to waste time on this with you, even though it is a super interesting topic. Your tepid, erroneous, and laughably poor understanding of the steps do not change the fact that they were written in 1935, that they evolved from earlier, explicitly religious similar sayings, or that they do in fact use the olā dog-spelled-backwards in them. Despite qualifying it immediately, thatās just too difficult to grok so letās agree youāre an idiot and move on.
For anyone interested, the steps are written as:
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol ā that our lives had become unmanageable.2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of GodĀ as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with GodĀ as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
It sure helps to talk with other people but we sure as fuck canāt meet them, because thatād be a goddamned cult, so I guess weāll just leave it there and hope your barest-flicker of attention will be enough to fully express what everythingās about without further question or ado.
the 12 Traditions donāt make that any better, either.
Itās true, 1952 wasnāt the secular watershed some had hoped but itās interesting anyway.
(Contād)
and thereās been a fair number of court rulings finding specifically that AA is indeed a religious organizationā¦ . . Most of those lawsuits centered on whether it was appropriate for the government (or government funded entities) to coerce attendance
Iām sure the context for those suits was all about whether God could create a stone so heavy he himself couldnāt lift it, and also how a higher power of one personās understanding is a perfect basis for a religion. Thank dog two people donāt have the same understanding - if they did and they were to, oh shit, meet! Oh itās too terrible to contemplate.
religionĀ /rÄ-lÄjā²Én/ noun
- The belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers, regarded as creating and governing the universe.Ā
ārespect for religion.ā
Some people in AA got that, sure. Some people in actual fucking religions do not got that. Aināt that a bitch. Whatās a poor boy to think.
- A particular variety of such belief, especially when organized into a system of doctrine and practice.Ā
āthe worldās many religions.ā
This is what youāre stating AA is and itās bullshit. You know how i know? Because thereās nothing about my understanding that applies to anyone else. We have a hellacious time setting feast days - we just canāt agree! How the fuck are we gonna get the t-shirts printed in time! Worst.religion.evar.
- A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
I know youāre dumb as shit, but even you canāt believe that. Right? Donāt bother.
AA teaches that individuals are powerless to change themselves, that is inherently a removal of personal agency. for fucks sakeā¦step one is:\
We admitted we were powerless over alcoholāthat our lives had become unmanageable.
So, riddle me this Einstein: if step one is to say we were powerless over alcohol, and (letās say, for funsies) we somehow remove that powerlessness, okay, who did that?. You wanna say that AA āteachesā that āgodā did it, right?
Yeah, wrong again, asshole. Wrong again! Shit, youāre bad at this.
When people speak of religious trauma, and especially āchristian shameā; this is what people are talking about. that inability, that inadequacy is deeply harmful.
Well, yeah thatās super fucked up. And itās not anything that AA āteachesā. Look, you clearly had a go of something with some fucked up shit and Iām sorry about that, but youāre painting AA with that brush and thatās just wrong. Just.wrong.
Any AA person that tells you you canāt do anything without Godā¢ is absolutely full of shit. Just like you. You lying, ignorant fuck.
AA targets alcoholics who are desirous of becoming sober.
AA explicitly doesnāt target shit. Anyone that says otherwise is also lying. One of those Twelves you pretended to have read says so explicitly. You want to try AA to get straight? Many have and done. You donāt want to? Also good. Goodbye and good luck.
This is an inherent aspect of AAās religious nature.
Shithead, youāre talking shit again. THERE AINāT NO RELIGIOUS IN IT. Do Jews go to AA and start talking to Jesus? Hindus? Bhuddists? Agnostics, Athiests, Anarchists, Arachnids, Applebees? All secret undercover Jesus freaks in the warm bosom of seekrit-forced-meeting-AA huh? Fuck. Stop being an idiot.
this inherent manipulate nature, this targeting of vulnerable people, and the leadership roles create a power dynamic that is attractive to certain kinds of people.
Sure, we call them fucking assholes and we donāt associate with them. Just like regular non-seekrit-forced-undercover-jesus-religion life. Youāre not wrong, there are people in AA that want to tell you who to date, what meds are ok to take and how to pray real good, and my advice, as was advised to me, is stay the fuck away from those people.
You think theyāre not in your āmodern, secular, very effectā treatment programs? GTFO. You have a much harder time staying away from them when you paid $35,000 to them and promised to live there while they judge your āprogressā. Shit, in AA you just say
because AA only works by manipulation, and by removing peer pressure, and by stripping agency from vulnerable people, and creating a dependence on the group itself.
Goddamn, dude whatever the fuck happened to you sounds terrible. But thatās not how AA works. Thatās not how itās written, thatās not how itās practiced, thatās not anything Iāve ever heard or seen as part of any AA expeeience Iāve heard about.
So Iām sorry whatever it was was like that, but youāre talking shit about AA. Pure shit.
- The belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers, regarded as creating and governing the universe.Ā
This dude only 6 years older than meā½ He looks like heās in his 60ās! Rode hard and put away wetā¦
Heās been in AA since he was 17, he doesnāt even have that excuse. Itās just the Laura Loomer syndrome
deleted by creator
Iām about to load the link. Iām guessing itāll be the group that was reported on in a couple of TrueAnon podcast eps. Lemme look them up. There it is! Synanon. Influential in the troubled teen industry. I was a victim of that (sent to an abusive military academy). All right, Iām opening the articleā¦
I was wrong. āThe Midtown group.ā Ok, never heard of them.
Lots of AA groups become like this, though not commonly to this degree. They are lay administered groups, and must be self regulatory for them to work, but the program itself relies on a lot of self policing, and discernment on the part of those seeking help, which is often asking a lot from the folks walking in the door.
