why are we so shitty to each other?

I am honestly pissed off on the fact people can’t give feedback without being pricks or “gamers” just shitting on developers because they are Starfield stans

Painting with such broad strokes about opinions you don’t like and writing them all collectively off as “pricks” and “starfield Stans” is contributing to the current state of discourse that you are lamenting.

I think we’re still, unfortunately, living in the fallout of things like Gamergate, where bad actors realized they could train people in a lot of subtle kinds of dog whistling and forms of bad faith interaction. We’re all unfortunately victims of a war to claim internet culture for the far right.

Steve Bannon was one of the earliest people to realize he could weaponize “Gamers” to try and influence the nature of discourse on the Internet, that’s sort of what Gamergate was all about; testing the waters for how young men could be converted into toxic edgelords and then essentially let loose.

The effectiveness comes with the fact that it’s a self-sustaining kind of behavior – once you equip someone with with toxic rhetorical tools and then reinforce the validity of that kind of thinking using insulated communities as sort of incubators, it just keeps spreading until being hostile and aggressive is normalized as the first response to anything. So much so that even people charged with moderating communities will hesitate to address it in direct way, instead operating under the philosophy “This is just the way things are, you can’t ban everyone”.

If you ever have the time and inclination, Innuendo Studios did a really insightful long-form analysis of the origins and tactics around Gamergate, and once you hear someone articulate it all and put it in a historic context it really helps clarify why, as you say, the Internet has seemed to becoming increasingly toxic as a default. It’s not all a direct result of Gamergate, but those events encapsulate so many concepts that are relevant even today, GG helped field test many of the crappy tactics we see online today, and then giant social media algorithms realized they could generate clicks by promoting that rage culture.

I think most people aren’t toxic, but the toxic ones always stick out. If you get 20 normal comment replies and one that was rude, you’ll probably remember that rude one more.

Same goes for anything that people have strong opinions about online - especially politics. The most extreme, hostile, and bizarre takes get a lot of attention and float to the top, which makes it seem like the majority opinion, when most people aren’t like that.

I honestly believe that modern social media and “the algorithm” has conditioned us into this kind of behaviour.

It’s already quite easy to forget we are interacting with other humans when we are behind screens and keyboards. This has always been an issue on the internet.

But when the internet is fuelled by algorithms which only want engagement, it is going to encourage behaviour which drives this. This is often extreme, sensational opinions and language. I feel like the algorithm constantly tried to show me content that would upset me. “What’s hot” is basically always “what’s controversial”, and controversy drives engagement. It certainly engaged me and I’ve had to make a conscious effort to just rip myself away from it.

Furthermore, social media doesn’t encourage long-form discussion, and it also conditions us to seek immediate gratification. Twitter especially wants us to summarize our points in just a few words, which doesn’t lend itself to mature, thought-out discussions.

I often make long posts here on Lemmy which I often feel aren’t really read by people or responded to because TL;DR. Me writing out paragraphs of analysis about Starfield isn’t going to get as many responses as someone simply saying “Starfield is the game of the century” or “Starfield is dogshit in every way”.

IMO, there’s a lot of factor playing part in this. (Copying from my fedi personal fedi acc!)

1. A lot of people lack control of the real world situation that happen to them and some are desperate for the feel of being in control enough to harm other people just to feel like ‘I’m in control’

2. A lot of people do not have a way to properly deal with their anger and frustration. They only teach to ‘hold or suppress it’ and there’s such also consequence in showing negative emotion IRL, so online is almost having no consequence for it.

3. Online people are separate by screen. People know that there’s people behind it, but they don’t feel it. In online, we don’t get in your face ‘feedback’ from body language or facial expression from other people. IRL, you mess around and pretty much find out instantly.

4. Social media reward people with engagement and fav/like, which is easy dopamine for people like it’s just a tip away from their body. And SOMEHOW I feel like social media normalized people being mean to each other as ‘Playful witty funny hahaha’ so they get rewarded by that. And yeah these things are addictive, so you can crave more, making you do more ‘extreme’ thing to get them. And yes you can get addicted to being angry too.

5. And then there is also peer pressure and ‘us vs them’ mentality that is so strong in social media. I mean yeah, if we look at it, being ‘mean’ together with your group it’s sort of activity that you can bound together and also reward you as well. It just not a good one and come at a cost of another people.

Now add all of them together, you get the platform that reward toxic interaction and also extremely addictive. You get reward from like/fav. You get reward by ‘Peer approval’ (because today we forbid other people having neutral opinion on a thing, but it could be just my experience.), You get reward by your own brain. Not counting other thing like politic, moral compass, religion because it adds entirely another layer on this.

I am getting old.

When I was a kid, my parents, my siblings and I would go to very crowded beaches during the summer. Sunny weather, vibrant colors, cool water. It was nearly impossible for me to bother with whatever everyone else was doing. My attention was focused to everything that was fun and new to me. I would swim for hours, climb rocks and attempt the most challenging dives I could, run on the wet sand. Even build castles!

And then, gradually, every next year each summer visit to the beach would become less magical. Every next year, my attention would start to focus less on the beach and more on the people. And not just people who were calm, friendly and enjoying themselves there. No. I would focus on people who were rude, stressed out and annoying. Loud people who would disregard everyone else around them.

Until, at some point, it started actually feeling bad visiting crowded places. Felt like there was no way I could enjoy being at the beach if I were to share it with other people. Now, I can point you to places that very few people know how to reach. And they are great. As long as you have your own company.

I envy my kid self. If you were to ask that kid what it felt like to be at the beach, you would get a lot of excitement and zero negativity.

Now, even though I will mostly avoid crowded places it’s not always possible to do so. So, when I end up in a crowded place I actively focus on what is important for me to enjoy my time. Laughter is music for my ears. Kidding around my friends, swimming and all the good stuff my kid self knew how to do better. I try. Sometimes I succeed, others I feel old and tired ;-)

Why are we so shitty to each other?

Outside of the internet, I ask this question.

It’s bizarre to me how billionaires don’t how to else to use their money other than engaging in a space race. It’s mind-boggling that people get into relationships only to beat and kill each the person closest to them. It’s discombobulating how a society largely directed by the whims of men rejects the anguished, depressed cries of other men before they kill themselves. It’s morbidly fascinating that a homeless epidemic is unfolding in developed nation and the response is to…withhold resources from them, destroy what little they have, and essentially do nothing to address their problems.

Why are we so shitty to each other indeed.

There is hope.

https://theindieweb.com/

i wholeheartedly agree with you. i severely limited my social media usage in the past 10 years. took extra care to be mindful of what kind of content i was spending time on. it’s shocking to me how much the online social norms have shifted in the past few years, since the start of the pandemic.

for me, it’s not so much about the shitty behavior and hot takes, but the fact that this type of behavior is commonly accepted. i’m not down with being treated that way, but it’s exhausting to deal with these attitudes everywhere. this is why i decided to join beehaw. i’m happy with my choice.

I think there was a “snarkiness” to the earlier web that I still appreciate. I’m fine with a one-word answer or a shit post if it’s funny and not hateful. I think the tone became a more extreme and worse version of itself over time. The internet is a place for everyone, not just enthusiasts, we gotta do better.

Problem is, as other comments have rightly said, we’re incentivized to do the opposite. And bad actors find it useful to encourage extreme opinions and division.

While i think something has been lost now that twitter, reddit and centralized communities are in decline, i also think this is an opportunity to build better communities with different incentives. While i don’t the fediverse is going to take over the internet, i think it’s part of a broader and encouraging trend.

A lot of social engagement through social media is driven by impressions such as up votes, favorites, likes, etc. Unfortunately, an easy way to promote engagement and such lies in rage bait. This is likely due to the visceral emotional response generated by rage baiting. I would also extend this issue to how ubiquitous instant gratification is to the internet and social media. People tend to acquire clout through reacting to something quickly, which isn’t always well-thought out. Add in the notion of mob mentality, and you have a recipe for the rapid exponential propagation of negative words, thoughts, and emotions. People also tend to not have productive ways of channeling their frustrations and issues, so they often see other entities on the Internet as just a name, sometimes less than that.

There’s also a heavy amount of tribalism across a variety of domains which allows one to take refuge from this rage baiting by finding other like-minded individuals to identify with. In some cases, the stress of everyday life or what have you removes a sense of agency or power in one’s life and sometimes people cope with this by developing a sense of superiority through whichever group or ideal that they identify with. This cycle repeats itself until there is a constant battle between any given groups where people attempt to elevate their self-worth by putting those that they dont agree with down, while emphasizing the superiority of their own ideal, IMO. I could be totally wrong ofc. I’m hardly perfect.

It’s been a pretty exhausting experience. I’m tired of it as well; my fondness for engaging with people has diminished greatly.

❤️ leaving a heart for you

I’ve actually wound back on posts on facebook and specialised sites. In hiking forums on facebook, I literally gave common sense information sometimes (for instance, in one case, someone was asking if water tanks on a route was full, and I explained to never rely on water tanks in the middle of summer for multi-day hikes since rangers don’t fill them) and you need permanent water sources. And, I got told I was “mansplaining”, and that she was knew what she was doing, from multiple people (not sure why she’d be asking if they were full then, if she didn’t plan to rely on them). On another one, someone was literally telling other people that they should carry a knife to protect themself against other people (and were trying to scare women into feeling like they shouldn’t be safe when hiking here in Australia).

Even if you’re a professional in a specific field, you’ll always come across people who tell you you’re wrong too, and try to treat you like crap. On Reddit, I got told once I was LARPing about doing hiking and mountaineering, until someone else pointed out my long post history.

On facebook, the whole fake troll accounts thing is the worst too (I literally saw a guy with 3 of the same named account as his friends, and a 4th, which was obviously their real name, as it was similar name).

Its one reason I was happy to donate to Beeshaw. We don’t all need to agree, but there needs to be good faith. And it feels like other communities are either just full of angry people, people who are scared of change, or people operating in bad faith.

We don’t need to be one of those communities. I myself can be toxic at times, but I agree… I am trying to be better…

That’s true especially in gaming circles.

There are big misconceptions about game development jobs. People tend to think that implementing X or Y feature “surely can’t be that hard”. They have absolutely zero experience in game design or game programming and yet they take on such a condescending level when you read their posts.

Programming is hard. Balancing is hard. Developing a game while you have a whole player base against you is hard. The game industry is most infamously known for its crunch times and high turnover rates. And yet players do not respect that.

Whenever a game gets released at all, it’s such a ton of work that have been done. Even if the game turns out to be not as fun as people wanted. Or even if there are bugs. In fact, i am sure that half of the people that complain aggressively will never do something that impressive in their life, ever.

We should be in awe and respect our fellow devs because this job is one of pure passion.

I’ve been starting to reduce my “internet footprint” especially on large media sites. (twitter, reddit, youtube, etc). I’ve been deleting a lot of my posts that dont have important info, and reducing my time spent on them. I’m doing it to improve my mental health. hopefully.