Support from some Pennsylvania Muslim leaders for Josh Shapiro has revealed rifts within the community and highlighted Muslim and Arab-American voters’ desire to center Palestinian rights this election.
  • Maeve@kbin.earth
    73·
    4 months ago

    The Democrats care about not alienating you (if you’re a corporate or ultra -wealthy entity).

  • Shdwdrgn@mander.xyzEnglish
    1915·
    3 months ago

    Alternatively, they could vote for Trump who has already stated his desire to increase all bans on Muslim immigrants. How long before his racist leadership tries to outright deport all Muslim citizens for not being “white enough”?

      • Shdwdrgn@mander.xyzEnglish
        138·
        3 months ago

        I mean at this point Shapiro isn’t even a presumptive nominee, he’s just one of the possible candidates. I think the only reason he’s even being considered is because he might bring in some extra votes in a large swing State.

        It’s odd to me that so many Arab voters are leaning towards Stein. As much as we hate it, this is still a two-party nation, and in an election where the votes might be close why would you take any chances in basically throwing away your vote? Personally I would still cast my ballot for the candidate who hasn’t directly threatened my family. Then again polls are not ballots, and as we get closer to November a lot of people’s opinions could still change.

        • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
          28·
          3 months ago

          It’s worth considering that maybe Arab and Muslim voters aren’t stupid and they have a point. If we assume that both parties really want to win (and with Dems that is definitely an if), then the worst thing you can do to persuade them to listen to you is to vow to vote for them unconditionally. If the constituency keeps approving a genocide and the genocide remains profitable, why ever would the Dems offer an anti-genocide candidate? Conversely, if hardline opposition to the genocide loses the Dems an election, suddenly next time around their pro-genocide ghouls aren’t “electable” and they need to actually pick someone who will give the people some of what they want, almost like there’s a popular mandate or something!

          All of this is giving a thousand times more credence to liberal democracy in general and America’s in particular than I actually have, but there are many ways of thinking beyond “Well, what are you going to do about the two party monopoly?”, most of which involve thinking past a single election cycle.

          • Shdwdrgn@mander.xyzEnglish
            12·
            3 months ago

            Oh I don’t fault anyone for trying to make a point. My biggest concern is what’s on the line for this election. When you have half of America being stupid enough to think that voting for Trump somehow gives them more freedom, when in fact he already has a history of taking away the rights of over half the population and documented plans to do even more damage, something is seriously wrong. We simply can’t afford to give him another term in charge. The only way we’ll ever change the system is by demanding some sort of ranked-choice voting where our votes actually count for something, and fortunately there are already efforts underway to bring that in to several states.

            • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
              14·
              3 months ago

              People like to be alarmist about Trump, and he was certainly doing bad things in office, but he was in no way a uniquely bad president, and all the bad things he did were continued or even expanded by Biden. There simply is no basis for this totalizing narrative about how the country will end if the Dems lose the election. It’s given every damn election and it’s never true, it’s just a psychological abuse tactic to convince you not to evaluate this rationally. Try to step back and consider, do you really think the next Republican frontrunner will be less fascist than Trump? Because Trump is okay with fascists, but he is not committed to the ideology or strategy of fascism in any way. If you give in to the Dems fearmongering, they will never stop using it. I don’t think I will convince you here, but I want you to seriously make note of the alarmist stance you’re taking and, if Trump wins, reflect in 2028 on how you were wrong and the country kept going.

              Furthermore, I’m not claiming Arab and Muslim voters are withholding their votes “to make a point”; I am saying, from a liberal democratic perspective, they are doing the only rational thing to create change by establishing bargaining power, something that is impossible if you support the Dems unconditionally.

              Ranked choice voting does, on paper, have the ability to create a basis for fixing the system, and that’s exactly why it will never be allowed through. Why would the rich and powerful allow their domination to be voted away? It’s absurd. They will just find excuse after excuse, like how ranked choice got shot down in MA for being “too confusing”, and so on. They’ve played this game for decades with healthcare, surely you aren’t that credulous to think some radically progressive measure they don’t even feign support for is going to be allowed to take hold?

              • Shdwdrgn@mander.xyzEnglish
                1·
                3 months ago

                I agree that it’s an alarmist stance, and no I don’t really believe democracy will end if Trump gets elected, but consider this… In 2016 we were all saying we’re sick of the same old shit so let’s just burn it all down and let Trump win, what’s the worst he can do? And here we are eight years later and we’re STILL finding out just how badly he fucked us. Even without Biden continuing some of Trump’s polices, look what SCOTUS has done to this country. We’ve all seen Project 2025 by now, and we all know Trump and his cronies are behind it despite his attempts to distance himself from the project, but I have honest concerns that Trump isn’t fully in control of himself any longer and could easily be manipulated into thinking he thought of this plan himself, and then tries to push it forward. It has been a long time since he had any rational ability to step back and look at what he’s doing, and that does scare me. I’m not so much worried about Trump in the next term, but rather the people he surrounds himself with. However if Trump is soundly beaten in this election, it might just make Conservatives realize that nobody is willing to put up with this extremist reality-tv style showmanship that they’ve been cultivating over the last eight years, and perhaps they will consider putting up a more rational candidate for the next election.

                OK, I understand the goal of bargaining power, and maybe it might work, I’m just worried that this isn’t the election to try making a power move when the alternative could literally see harm coming to their families. Do you remember after 9/11 when everyone was ready to round up and shoot anyone that appeared middle-eastern even if they were generational American citizens? Trump’s style of encouraging the skinheads to take matters into their own hands means anyone who isn’t pale white could see even more harassment than today, and that worries me. And for the record, I am a white guy, but I’m really tired of all the brutality that POC suffer and Trump’s term really did make things worse.

                Have you seen that a few states are working out the details to implement RCV? I live in Colorado, one of the places which are trying to evaluate it. Yes it’s going slow, but our government is actually taking it seriously with plans to try and have it in place by the 2028 election, so I do have some hope. We all know the government moves at the speed of a slug in a salt mine but this seems at least somewhat encouraging. And hey, they said marijuana would never be accepted either, but look at us now. Still not universally legal but progress is being made.

                • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
                  11·
                  3 months ago

                  In 2016 we were all saying we’re sick of the same old shit so let’s just burn it all down and let Trump win, what’s the worst he can do?

                  That’s really not what happened, it wasn’t Bernie Bros who caused Trump to win, no matter what centrists try to tell you.

                  Moreover, you’re missing that I’m talking about a specific and highly actionable demand, not nihilism.

                  However if Trump is soundly beaten in this election, it might just make Conservatives realize that nobody is willing to put up with this extremist reality-tv style showmanship that they’ve been cultivating over the last eight years, and perhaps they will consider putting up a more rational candidate for the next election.

                  This is absurd, straight up. They’ll change rhetorical tact as needed, but you are completely misunderstanding what the Republican Party is even for if you think them losing two elections will get them to unify behind the three #NeverTrump Republicans who actually exist. You are genuinely mistaking Sorkin slop for reality. They aren’t good guys with different values, they aren’t robots trying to hone in on a center-right consensus, they are a trust of capitalists and their ghouls seeking to crush the power of working people and maximize the profit that can be extracted from them.

                  More to the point, rather like the fundraising attempts of the Dems, the Republicans still win even when they lose the Presidency, because the Dems are completely unwilling to fight Republicans when they even partially control congress. The Republicans have been doing great these four years. They don’t need to come to a realization, they know exactly what they are doing.

                  OK, I understand the goal of bargaining power, and maybe it might work, I’m just worried that this isn’t the election to try making a power move when the alternative could literally see harm coming to their families.

                  It’s never “the right time”. There’s always some excuse to put off actual progress. That’s how this shit works; that’s how it has always worked. That’s how Democrats talk someone who thinks of himself as progressively-minded into considering genocide to be a negotiable issue.

                  I am a white guy, but

                  I have something for you to read.

                  I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically feels that he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by the myth of time; and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection

                  – some Bernie Bro, I think

                  Have you seen that a few states are working out the details to implement RCV? I live in Colorado, one of the places which are trying to evaluate it. Yes it’s going slow, but our government is actually taking it seriously with plans to try and have it in place by the 2028 election

                  There’s a saying in Germany, don’t celebrate a baby before it is born. If you haven’t seen the classic Democratic practice of slow-rolling something into oblivion, I guess now you can. Just make sure to remember it so you recognize it next time.

                  And hey, they said marijuana would never be accepted either, but look at us now.

                  No one who knows what they are talking about would say that about pot. It’s clearly more useful to the bourgeoisie as a balm, they can prosecute the war on drugs targeting other substances just fine.

                  This is another place where I’m sure you can think through it just by realizing there is something to think through: Is pot really the same as voting reform that would surely topple the two-party system? Do they really not have any sort of structural factors differentiating them?

        • تحريرها كلها ممكن@lemmy.mlOP
          253·
          3 months ago

          The fact that he is even likely is insulting.

          If Democrats want Arab and Muslim votes maybe they shouldn’t even consider someone who volunteers to kill Palestinians and calls them savages as VP?

        • geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml
          162·
          3 months ago

          Why are all the Arabs doing the right thing? Don’t they understand they are supposed to do the wrong thing?

          If all other people joined the Arabs there would be no more two party system.

          • Shdwdrgn@mander.xyzEnglish
            11·
            3 months ago

            True enough, but how you are going to convince enough people to change a lifetime of voting habits? I mean I voted 3rd-party in 2016 because it literally doesn’t matter in my district – we vote more than 80% Democrat so a few people changing their vote wasn’t going to matter. However after losing in 2016 to that shitstain I’m simply not willing to take that chance again. I know my one vote still wouldn’t make a difference, but for me the principle this time is voting directly against Trump by voting Dem. And hoping that Conservatives finally realize Trump isn’t a “radical change”, he is just outright insane and doesn’t give a rats ass about anyone who is worth less than tens of millions of dollars, and that the next election provides candidates who aren’t treating people’s lives like a stupid reality show.

            • geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml
              141·
              3 months ago

              If only people would take the Arabs as example and start endorsing a third party instead of pushing back on it. Somewhere a line must be drawn. If not here where?

              • Shdwdrgn@mander.xyzEnglish
                21·
                3 months ago

                Sure, lines must be drawn. The problem is that one of the candidates is openly friendly with white-supremists and likes to encourage them to take action without getting his own hands dirty. If this election opens the doors for openly killing anyone of color (you know, even more so than it is now), then we’re really taking a big step backwards and have no hope at all of pressuring our government to start making things right in other countries too. From my perspective, both parties are going to continue this genocide in Pakistan for as long as they can, and if we open the doors to domestic terrorism then none of us have any hope of trying to encourage foreign policy changes.

          • Shdwdrgn@mander.xyzEnglish
            1·
            3 months ago

            I really hope not, there are certainly better candidates on her short-list… but unfortunately we don’t really have a say in that part. Guess we’ll find out in a couple of weeks, at least she’s announced her candidates early enough that the shit can hit the fan on the internet and give her a heads-up about certain choices being wildly unpopular.

      • gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        59·
        3 months ago

        I will never understand people who vote third party. It’s absolutely not a viable option if you actually care about reforming voting laws (or, you know, stopping fucking fascists from taking over, as the case is in this election)

        • تحريرها كلها ممكن@lemmy.mlOP
          92·
          3 months ago

          For me personally it is about dignity. I am not voting for someone who as VP -stood silent- cheered on while their boss enabled the worst genocide of our lifetime and whose likely VP pick volunteered to kill Palestinians and called Palestinians savages. Is this not fascism? Or is fascism is only when bad things happen to white people?

          Goes without saying not voting for Trump either.

          • Em Adespoton@lemmy.ca
            44·
            3 months ago

            This is not fascism. It’s vile, but a different type of vileness.

            People are in a difficult place right now; the options are: vote for the guy who will make life demonstrably worse for everyone and has a chance of winning, for the woman who doesn’t appear to care about the genocide and has a chance of winning, or voting any other way and effectively wasting your vote because it won’t even make it past the post.

            • تحريرها كلها ممكن@lemmy.mlOP
              82·
              3 months ago

              If you saw the images I saw you probably would have developed a whole different perspective. I am not in any way shape or form better than the little girl that got her jaw blown up by a bomb Biden sent Israel. What used to scare me or matter to me has changed significantly.

              Heck if Trump throws me in an internment camp at least I will have the excuse of being in an internment camp for not doing anything about the genocide. And if he drops a bomb on my house even better, one less bomb dropped on Palestine. I will gladly send Trump my home address. It won’t be the first time.

          • gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
            44·
            3 months ago

            I get the fury. I really do. But consider that, pragmatically, voting 3rd party just increases the chance Trump gets in. And if you don’t think Trump would sortie a squadron or three of B-52s to “help” bibi and carpet bomb Gaza, coincidentally clearing the way for the new Trump Gaza Tower within a week of taking office, you’re honestly kidding yourself.

            TL;DR: don’t let emotion blind you. Vote tactically, in a way that offers the most utility, and allows the least harm. And try to look beyond the first-order effects.

            • تحريرها كلها ممكن@lemmy.mlOP
              73·
              3 months ago

              The Democratic Party ignoring legitimate grievances increases the chance Trump gets in.

              You fear Trump more than we do. Biden is already sending Israel thousands of bombs that have killed over 40,000 people. Over 70% of Gaza is already destroyed. Universities destroyed, hospitals destroyed, water wells and treatment destroyed, polio is epidemic, … You really can’t scare us with Trump being worse. No one is voting for him, but we don’t fear him.

              TL;DR: You fear Trump, if you want Arab and Muslim Americans to care like we did in 2020 you have to do much more than Trump will be worse. When we cared and volunteered and donated in 2020 we were rewarded with a genocide.

                • WanderingVentra@lemm.ee
                  4·
                  3 months ago

                  You can’t really threaten Arab voters with a Muslim ban when someone currently in office is enabling a genocide against their family members. Literally everything else falls by the wayside. That’s the top tier war crime. It’s like being stabbed and someone says watch out, that other guy wants to shoot you. You’re not going to net support for the guy stabbing you that way.

                  Now saying that, I’m voting for Harris, but I get why Arab American and other voters wouldn’t, but… only if she picked Shapiro or someone like that (like Fetterman but he’s not on the list lol). Otherwise, Harris seems to be better on the issue than Biden, as VP’s don’t have a lot of say in policy unless they’re Dick Cheney and she can easily separate herself from Biden’s policies. And we know Trump will be bad on the issue, he’s also a known quantity. Hopefully Kamala can thread the needle of being a “new” quality on this issue. Although AIPAC probably won’t have that lol.

            • تحريرها كلها ممكن@lemmy.mlOP
              83·
              3 months ago

              Voting 3rd party nets you 3 votes apparently:

              1. A vote for Trump because you didn’t vote for Harris
              2. A vote for Harris because you didn’t vote for Trump
              3. A vote for the 3rd party candidate you voted for
    • Kumikommunism [they/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
      196·
      3 months ago

      Why would they vote for Harris, who has already stated her desire to support Israel’s genocide and ethnostate? How long before her racist leadership tries to outright deport all Muslim citizens for being “too anti-semitic”?

      • Shdwdrgn@mander.xyzEnglish
        22·
        3 months ago

        Now you’re just trying to impress Republican policies onto Democrats. Democrats accept immigrants and welcome the diversity into our country, Republicans just want to deport everyone who isn’t a “true white American”.