I hate to break it to you, but our meat brains don’t even have continuity of consciousness. We become unconscious all the time. The only real constant is the “hardware” our consciousness emerges from, but even that is always changing.
Except our brains are still functioning. If they didn’t keep functioning, we’d be brain dead. The point is that there’s a common thread that connects every waking moment together.
I don’t get the down votes. Did y’all forget about sleep? No one vividly dreams every night all night long. Often it’s the fade to black going to sleep then the sudden awakening.
Sorry, should have been more specific. If you died in your sleep every night and came back to life in the morning, and you couldn’t tell it was happening, would it matter?
It’s not a question with a right answer, I just want to hear your thoughts about it
What does maintaining continuity of consciousness look like to you? As in you are able to talk to your copy? And continue to live your normal life outside while your digital self lives their digital life?
Or are you saying you want the transition to digital to be seamless, where your digital self remembers laying in a chair, a quick pin-prick, and then they’re in the digital realm?
Keep in mind, we have zero understanding of how you’d get the meat consciousness to transition into the digital consciousness - it’s likely not even possible. The two options for copying are keep both alive or terminate the original somewhere before bringing the digital one online. There’s many ways to do both, but those are the two.
I think the only way we know it is us for sure is if we are conscious in both the original and clone at the same time. Like… okay… I know this is me in the new brain, I’ll shut down the other one.
What is the perceived difference between falling asleep and waking up the next day, vs going to sleep and copying your consciousness to a machine/new body.
Probably. If you’ve ever been under anesthesia then you’ve probably noticed the difference between sleeping under anesthesia and sleeping under normal conditions. Personally, I normally get the feeling that time has passed when I sleep, I didn’t have that feeling when I had my wisdom teeth removed; and anesthesia still doesn’t turn your brain all the way off. I’m pretty sure if your brain actually turned off all the way and then turned back on again, then you’d probably feel like you’re a different person.
You wouldn’t notice because you’d be dead. Your clone wouldn’t notice because it would think it was you. Your friends and family wouldn’t notice because they’d think your clone was you.
That continuity of function is arbitrary. In reality it provides people comfort in some idea of a soul but there’s nothing suggesting it actually provides anything to the continuity of consciousness.
Between every loss in time, where you stop forming memories until you wake up again, you have nothing to affirm that your current consciousness is the same as your last waking period’s. The only thing vaguely providing that illusion is your previously-formed memories, which would exist all the same on the digital mind, in theory.
I don’t think you understand. Your consciousness is just one process amid a myriad of processes that your brain runs. It’s that continuity that matters. You’re correct that I don’t know if my current consciousness is the same as prior consciousnesses, however what matters is that my brain has never shut off, giving me the feeling as though I am the same person; and it is because of that thread that I am the same person (though perhaps with a different consciousness).
Furthermore, you can’t achieve immortality through digital consciousness if you just copy the whole thing and throw out the original. Again, it’s the continuity. It honestly confuses me why people think that’s a rational idea when the very obvious problem is, “what if something goes wrong and human me wakes up?”
That’s why you have people, like me, who get frustrated when people start getting philosophical about this shit because they think you can “just make a perfect copy” of a person to achieve immortality.
Seriously?
No.
You just killed yourself and made a copy of yourself. You didn’t achieve shit. Your new self might be happy, but your old self is dead. You’re not suddenly going to wake up as a digital clone. You’re not waking up at all, it’s your clone that’s waking up.
And hey, if that’s good enough for you, then so be it. Just don’t pretend you’ve achieved immortality; it was your digital clone that did. You’re still going to die.
It also confuses me that so many people seem to believe that you’re literally brain-dead while you sleep. If you were literally brain-dead then there’d be no way for you to wake up. Sleep seems to be when the brain processes memories too, so if your brain fully shut off, then it wouldn’t be able to processes memories while you’re asleep. Finally, afaik, once the brain shuts off, it can’t turn back on; evolution didn’t plan for a situation in which someone’s been dead long enough for brain activity to cease before their heart starts pumping again. So why does everyone insist that you go brain-dead the moment your head touches the pillow?
This convo has gone on for centuries at this point. The Brain in the Jar, the teleportation conundrum, Thesius’ ship, it’s all already been covered over and over. people like you still keep crawling out of the woodwork thinking you know better than every philosopher that already waxed over this problem ad nauseum.
Your ‘continuous self’ is just as worthless as a concept. The idea that your ‘sense of being the same person’ is being held together by being apart of your plumbing just as much of an illusion. It’s worthless.
To elaborate, you are not the brain. You are the observer, the thing which exists as a byproduct of the brain’s processes, perhaps even a process yourself within. There’s also plenty of times when you will lose time other than sleep, like concussions, getting blackout drunk, panic attacks, and after those times you have no memory of making decisions or acting in your own accord, but you were. You, the observer, were absent while the brain kept working. So where were you?
You act as though you’re sure you are still the same observer as the one who went to bed. That is completely unsubstantiated. You may have just been born into your body when you awoke today, and will only have until your body falls back asleep again before you cease to exist, replaced by another process that thinks itself is you, another observer.
And if ‘you’ one day woke up in a digital world, like our own, it’s you’d be none the wiser, because your self is simply a collection of processes and memories. It’s arbitrary. It’s all dust. There’s not some special ‘continuity’ that keeps you alive somehow.
Some sleep is conscious (dreaming) but they’re easily forgotten. Perhaps being unconscious still always has a grain of consciousness (but is just forgotten).
It seems there is a grain of reduced experience while sleeping. Copying seems to imply it’s always a clone (a different ego, a different person).
The body. It’s feeding you vast amounts of information every moment, it’s the one making decisions, you’re the AI assistant providing analysis and advice
If you clone a tree, you get a similar tree. The branches aren’t in the same place. If you clone a human, why would the nerves be laid out the same way? Even if it’s wired up correctly, without a lifetime of cooperation why would your body take your advice?
Imagine you wake up. Red looks blue. Everything feels numb. The doctor says “everything looks good, why don’t you try to stand up?”. You want to cooperate with the doctor, but you don’t stand up. You could move, but you don’t. Rationalizing your choices, you tell the doctor you don’t feel like it. You feel your toes, you shift to get away from the prodding of your doctor, but you just can’t muster the will to stand
Imagine you wake up. Your sight is crystal clear, you feel your body like never before. The doctor says “don’t move yet”. With the self control of a child, you rip out the itchy IV to get the tape off of you. The doctor says something in a stem tone, and you’re filled with rage. You pummel the doctor, then are filled with regret and start to cry
Emerging science suggests this kind of situation could lead to brand new forms of existential horror
The m in stem stands for medicine. Maybe your new body doesn’t trust experts, so when doc spoke in an overly educated tone it provoked aggression. Possibly because of overhearing this tone during incubation and while getting the original brain replaced
This is the correct way IMO. “Uploading” your mind to a computer is making a clone/copy, but the original dies the same.
Maintaining continuity of consciousness is the only thing that would make me feel comfortable with converting myself to a machine intelligence.
I hate to break it to you, but our meat brains don’t even have continuity of consciousness. We become unconscious all the time. The only real constant is the “hardware” our consciousness emerges from, but even that is always changing.
Except our brains are still functioning. If they didn’t keep functioning, we’d be brain dead. The point is that there’s a common thread that connects every waking moment together.
I don’t get the down votes. Did y’all forget about sleep? No one vividly dreams every night all night long. Often it’s the fade to black going to sleep then the sudden awakening.
You do not die every night.
Obviously not, but what is the functional difference? If you can’t tell it’s happening, does it actually matter?
Yes, yes it matters a lot. If you die you do not wake up again.
Sorry, should have been more specific. If you died in your sleep every night and came back to life in the morning, and you couldn’t tell it was happening, would it matter?
It’s not a question with a right answer, I just want to hear your thoughts about it
I’m that case no it wouldn’t matter. It would make us all feel much better about the possibility of life after the body dies though.
How would you know?
How do you know you’re not a copy of yesterday’s you? If a clone has your memories and you’re not around anymore, then what’s the difference?
You’d have to experience death for the clone to continue being the only copy.
Yeah. In the example above the original is dead, and a clone with all of your memories up until the point of death is generated.
In that case, there is continuity of concussions, at least as far as anyone can tell, least of all the clone.
Don’t try to get philosophical about this. There is a hard difference between copying a brain and actually transferring consciousness.
Er? It’s a philosophical conversation since, you know, brain uploading is not a thing.
If you don’t want to engage in philosophy, you’re in the wrong place.
You’re mixing up speculative and philosophical.
That’s not what he means and you know it.
What does maintaining continuity of consciousness look like to you? As in you are able to talk to your copy? And continue to live your normal life outside while your digital self lives their digital life?
Or are you saying you want the transition to digital to be seamless, where your digital self remembers laying in a chair, a quick pin-prick, and then they’re in the digital realm?
Keep in mind, we have zero understanding of how you’d get the meat consciousness to transition into the digital consciousness - it’s likely not even possible. The two options for copying are keep both alive or terminate the original somewhere before bringing the digital one online. There’s many ways to do both, but those are the two.
I think the only way we know it is us for sure is if we are conscious in both the original and clone at the same time. Like… okay… I know this is me in the new brain, I’ll shut down the other one.
the other one: i’m pretty sure you’ve got it backwards, pal
No, no… you misunderstood. We’re just taking a trip to the brain farm up north. You’ll be able to think with the other brains up there. It’ll be fun.
Read Old Man’s War.
I agree.
But here is an interesting thing to think about:
What is the perceived difference between falling asleep and waking up the next day, vs going to sleep and copying your consciousness to a machine/new body.
Your brain is still functioning while you’re asleep. If it turned off all the way then you’d become brain-dead.
But would you notice?
Probably. If you’ve ever been under anesthesia then you’ve probably noticed the difference between sleeping under anesthesia and sleeping under normal conditions. Personally, I normally get the feeling that time has passed when I sleep, I didn’t have that feeling when I had my wisdom teeth removed; and anesthesia still doesn’t turn your brain all the way off. I’m pretty sure if your brain actually turned off all the way and then turned back on again, then you’d probably feel like you’re a different person.
You wouldn’t notice because you’d be dead. Your clone wouldn’t notice because it would think it was you. Your friends and family wouldn’t notice because they’d think your clone was you.
That continuity of function is arbitrary. In reality it provides people comfort in some idea of a soul but there’s nothing suggesting it actually provides anything to the continuity of consciousness.
Between every loss in time, where you stop forming memories until you wake up again, you have nothing to affirm that your current consciousness is the same as your last waking period’s. The only thing vaguely providing that illusion is your previously-formed memories, which would exist all the same on the digital mind, in theory.
I don’t think you understand. Your consciousness is just one process amid a myriad of processes that your brain runs. It’s that continuity that matters. You’re correct that I don’t know if my current consciousness is the same as prior consciousnesses, however what matters is that my brain has never shut off, giving me the feeling as though I am the same person; and it is because of that thread that I am the same person (though perhaps with a different consciousness).
Furthermore, you can’t achieve immortality through digital consciousness if you just copy the whole thing and throw out the original. Again, it’s the continuity. It honestly confuses me why people think that’s a rational idea when the very obvious problem is, “what if something goes wrong and human me wakes up?”
That’s why you have people, like me, who get frustrated when people start getting philosophical about this shit because they think you can “just make a perfect copy” of a person to achieve immortality.
Seriously?
No.
You just killed yourself and made a copy of yourself. You didn’t achieve shit. Your new self might be happy, but your old self is dead. You’re not suddenly going to wake up as a digital clone. You’re not waking up at all, it’s your clone that’s waking up.
And hey, if that’s good enough for you, then so be it. Just don’t pretend you’ve achieved immortality; it was your digital clone that did. You’re still going to die.
It also confuses me that so many people seem to believe that you’re literally brain-dead while you sleep. If you were literally brain-dead then there’d be no way for you to wake up. Sleep seems to be when the brain processes memories too, so if your brain fully shut off, then it wouldn’t be able to processes memories while you’re asleep. Finally, afaik, once the brain shuts off, it can’t turn back on; evolution didn’t plan for a situation in which someone’s been dead long enough for brain activity to cease before their heart starts pumping again. So why does everyone insist that you go brain-dead the moment your head touches the pillow?
This convo has gone on for centuries at this point. The Brain in the Jar, the teleportation conundrum, Thesius’ ship, it’s all already been covered over and over. people like you still keep crawling out of the woodwork thinking you know better than every philosopher that already waxed over this problem ad nauseum.
Your ‘continuous self’ is just as worthless as a concept. The idea that your ‘sense of being the same person’ is being held together by being apart of your plumbing just as much of an illusion. It’s worthless.
To elaborate, you are not the brain. You are the observer, the thing which exists as a byproduct of the brain’s processes, perhaps even a process yourself within. There’s also plenty of times when you will lose time other than sleep, like concussions, getting blackout drunk, panic attacks, and after those times you have no memory of making decisions or acting in your own accord, but you were. You, the observer, were absent while the brain kept working. So where were you?
You act as though you’re sure you are still the same observer as the one who went to bed. That is completely unsubstantiated. You may have just been born into your body when you awoke today, and will only have until your body falls back asleep again before you cease to exist, replaced by another process that thinks itself is you, another observer.
And if ‘you’ one day woke up in a digital world, like our own, it’s you’d be none the wiser, because your self is simply a collection of processes and memories. It’s arbitrary. It’s all dust. There’s not some special ‘continuity’ that keeps you alive somehow.
Some sleep is conscious (dreaming) but they’re easily forgotten. Perhaps being unconscious still always has a grain of consciousness (but is just forgotten).
It seems there is a grain of reduced experience while sleeping. Copying seems to imply it’s always a clone (a different ego, a different person).
The body. It’s feeding you vast amounts of information every moment, it’s the one making decisions, you’re the AI assistant providing analysis and advice
If you clone a tree, you get a similar tree. The branches aren’t in the same place. If you clone a human, why would the nerves be laid out the same way? Even if it’s wired up correctly, without a lifetime of cooperation why would your body take your advice?
Imagine you wake up. Red looks blue. Everything feels numb. The doctor says “everything looks good, why don’t you try to stand up?”. You want to cooperate with the doctor, but you don’t stand up. You could move, but you don’t. Rationalizing your choices, you tell the doctor you don’t feel like it. You feel your toes, you shift to get away from the prodding of your doctor, but you just can’t muster the will to stand
Imagine you wake up. Your sight is crystal clear, you feel your body like never before. The doctor says “don’t move yet”. With the self control of a child, you rip out the itchy IV to get the tape off of you. The doctor says something in a stem tone, and you’re filled with rage. You pummel the doctor, then are filled with regret and start to cry
Emerging science suggests this kind of situation could lead to brand new forms of existential horror
!keming@lemmy.world moment?
The m in stem stands for medicine. Maybe your new body doesn’t trust experts, so when doc spoke in an overly educated tone it provoked aggression. Possibly because of overhearing this tone during incubation and while getting the original brain replaced
Or maybe I made a typo
reading this comment suddenly reminded me of the “Pantheon” show.
Man I can’t get that brain laser out of my memory. So brutal