- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/26226188
cross-posted from: https://lemy.lol/post/39626252
We have to agree where we ARE before we stand a chance to agree about what we do from here.
You must log in or register to comment.
Gonna be real hard for me to hold hands and sing Kumbaya with a group of people who vote against democracy by elevating rapists and felons who illegally attempt to overturn elections and who have a ton of racists and sexists in their ranks.
Wouldn’t have said that 10+ years ago, but they’ve crossed all sorts of lines since then. They don’t really deserve to be forgiven.
I agree but we have to acknowledge that it’s not helpful. Like there is nothing MAGA can say or do to make me think they are good people, but if we can at minimum get them to understand the propaganda they swallowed whole we can actually do better, for all of us.
MAGA are evil people.
I don’t even consider them people at this point. They want to treat people like dogs and breeding mares then that’s exactly how I’ll treat them.
Follow the social contract or get fucked.
umm and how’s likes of biden and pelosi any less evil than these people. with palestine biden has more civilians blood on him than putin.
if you can hold your nose and vote for dnc then you can also work with ex-maga
The problem isn’t that they’re bad at spotting a liar, it’s what they were lied to about.
It’s the transphobic, anti working class, white supremacist ideologies that allowed them to be duped in the first place. Get rid of that and we can talk.
Frankly, it’s most important they admit to themselves that they were lied to.
Even more important that someone they liked and someone they thought liked them lied to them.
Yeah. People don’t just deserve forgiveness. Acknowledgement of bad behavior comes before forgiveness. That’s standard operating procedure. They aren’t doing that.
Do you think they will?
Right wingers fucking around: “Yeah let’s deport all the ILLEGALS, lower our egg prices, and make the government fascist! MAGA!”
Right Wingers finding out: “Boohoo my benefits are cut, Canada boos at our National Anthem, and I have to sell my left kidney to buy groceries!”
Fuck these people. Conservatives were drawn in to Trump because of his hateful rhetoric and they only changed their minds when they were personally affected. They’ll vote with a hard R the next election cycle anyway and don’t deserve our sympathy. They were around and even voted for Trump’s first administration and wanted more of his hate.
I don’t understand what people like you don’t get. This isn’t about sympathy. It’s about winning. You shouldn’t care that you aren’t getting revenge. Revenge doesn’t actually help you get anything done. You’re only shooting yourself in the foot. If we can get only a handful of them to join our side, that’s still good. We need to win or we can’t actually get anything done. So, when this kind of thing comes up trying to appeal to former conservative of voters you don’t need to help out, just keep your thoughts to yourself. You’re only damaging the movement.
A lot of the people I know who fell for MAGA are the types to believe falling for a lie is a personal failing on their part, and will refuse to admit any sort personal failing out of whatever they think pride is.
Trump openly stated he would do what he’s doing now. His campaign published project 2025. It wasn’t a conspiracy. They did it out in the open while crowing about doing it. There’s really no excuse for not listening when he told you his plans.
You either made a mistake because you were purposely uninformed or you agreed with what he wanted to do until it started affecting you. Either way you were wrong and need to accept and admit that before serious work can be done. Otherwise it’ll just happen again when the next demagogue rears their ugly head.
“It was supposed to hurt others. Not ME!”
Working class is working class, red or blue.
Dem leadership is as pro-corporate as the current admin.
Don’t underestimate the effect that propeganda ran by our very own government has on its citizenry.
Working class is working class, red or blue.
True but not relevant to what I said. Everyone of us needs to learn from our mistakes, but in order to do that we have to admit we made them.
Dem leadership is as pro-corporate as the current admin.
False, I doubt the Dems would have dismantled the government at the behest of the world’s richest man (along with giving him access to all of our tax and social security records) and also not relevant to what I said.
Don’t underestimate the effect that propeganda[sic] ran by our very own government has on its citizenry.
Accurate, America is one of the most heavily propagandized populations in history, but not relevant because all they had to do was listen to the words of Trump’s actual campaign speeches or read his actual campaign literature to know what he was planning to do. He didn’t hide his intentions, people just thought he wasn’t serious about them.
Working class is working class, red or blue.
Yes. And one side votes in favor of the working class while the other does not.
Dem leadership is as pro-corporate as the current admin.
Then why do we see more tax breaks for the wealthy under Republican leadership than Democrat leadership? Why do we see more corporate regulations under Democrat leadership and less under Republican leadership? Your statement is false.
Has anyone sent it to their MAGA friend and the person responded “yep, you were right”?
I understand this has good intentions, which I support, but I think this still needs to be changed. I don’t care them admitting me they were wrong or were lied to, but I do want them to admit it to themselves, get past the divide and work together to fix what we have now.
I don’t need anyone to admit anything. I see maga voters getting on board, so apparently they already admitted to themselves they were too tired and stretched too thin, so were duped. It’s not like our educational institutions do anything to help that, especially in red states. We have consistently defunded education since Nixon.
All I need is their motivation to work together. We can work out ideological differences with patience and fortitude, forgiveness and understanding, as we do that
Are they getting on board? I stopped following the news ever since Trump got elected because it became way too depressing.
At least in my area. Not everyone but a not-insignificant amount. One of my parents is and that’s saying quite a bit.
I’m very surprised they’re not choosing to blame the democrats for that as well….or the fact that “we’re sending all the money to Ukraine”. 
I mean don’t get me wrong, there are POC here that think maga is awesome, one of my neighbors does, and they’re all less informed, but the neighbor that does seems like a decent person. Scratched the surface of Buddhism, Hinduism but still believes in satanic panic crap, but we still have decent conversations, share things when we have a need, swap YouTube links, and it’s just mind-boggling to me. I just think he’s indoctrinated. He doesn’t seem racist, sexist, misogynistic either but… Idk I guess we all have our blind spots so I have hope of my parent can come around, this neighbor can, too. Idk about the POC though. And I miss the cheerful immigrants who used to work here. I hope they went home on their own rather than (risk) ice.
I don’t need anyone to admit anything.
It’s standard operating procedure in human civilization for someone who was wrong to admit they were wrong before the person or people they wronged can work together with them.
This isn’t some huge ask. They were wrong. People got hurt. They need to admit their error before they can be trusted.
I see maga voters getting on board
Do you?
It’s not like our educational institutions do anything to help that, especially in red states.
It doesn’t take Einsteinian levels of genius to look around you and go “Hmmm, shit kind of sucks and we’ve been exclusively electing Republicans in this region my entire life.” No, they’d rather blame libs in other parts of the country, or people with darker shades of skin.
All I need is their motivation to work together.
Cool. My motivation is knowing they’ve changed by admitting they were wrong.
We can work out ideological differences with patience and fortitude, forgiveness and understanding
They want women to be second class citizens and don’t want trans people to exist. How do you propose we get past a hurdle like that?
I’m not the one that was betrayed. It’s the Constitution, our fore fathers, and the millions of men and women that died for our freedom that were betrayed. None of them are here so all you can do is find forgiveness from yourself. But are you going to stand by the train tracks as an endless row of people are slaughtered or are you going to say something?
I’ve been saying it. And working for better. Good we’re working together.
Actions speak louder than words. I trust the MAGA voter holding a sign that says “Fuck Trump” over someone that can’t be bothered to walk away from their TV or video games.
Thank you. This is what is needed.
Edit: obviously many people are not worth the effort but not even trying is not going to help. Don’t associate with Nazis, period. Not everyone who causes harm is a Nazi, however.
Also not endorsing the language 100%, however I do think this is a good start.
This sounds reasonable, but the logical conclusion of that is that the only people that associate with Nazis are other Nazis, or future Nazis (who may not realise it yet). This normalises nazism in a growing group of people because they don’t have any moderate voices highlighting their more extreme thoughts and pulling them back towards normality.
Your argument also make the false assumption that Nazis are irredeemable. I’m sure some of them are. But I’m equally sure that at least some of them aren’t.
I am not responsible for spending time around violent, hateful people in order to bring them into the fold and change their minds and ultimately their actions. My comment is about talking to people in your life already, who are more likely to actually make changes, I.e. picking your battles, in order to give chances to the folks such as those who are alienated but unsure.
Your argument also make the false assumption that Nazis are irredeemable. I’m sure some of them are. But I’m equally sure that at least some of them aren’t.
Thats not an assumption that I make although I could see how you would think I was saying that. In my mind people are people and probably most of them could make changes, but the work required to do so becomes greater over time and it does not fall on marginalized folks, including me, to do that work. But yes I don’t associate with Nazis. If you do something different that isn’t enabling and validating them and their beliefs and actions I would love to know what it is.
Remove all overlay words and start with… LET’S TAKE AMERICA BACK TOGETHER!
First we have to agree with who we are taking it back FROM.
The ones who have bought the lies think it’s the immigrants. The ones who know better realize it’s the rich.
I just also wish they’d take this as a lesson for the future. How could they have elected a convicted felon, blackmailer, narcissist, POS in the first place.
We keep treating Rep with kid gloves. No more.
Or just grow up, admit you were wrong, and do something about it. “It’ll make them feel bad!” Good, they should feel bad. They voted for an openly hostile, dumb, Russian bootlicker of a president. I just don’t get this post that keeps being reposted and why coming together means forgetting how we got here.
Imagine an abusive wife trying to come back to her husband because she didn’t realize she signed a prenup and wants to say she was lied to about leaving now that life is hard. Like, no, not going to take any responsibility for my temper/violence, or even say I’m going to change, let’s just pretend I didn’t know that punching you in the face was gonna leave a black eye because I didn’t think it would hurt my hand.
Look at your retirement go! Good thing everyone who has a dick is forced to go into the dick restroom:
We’re in for the fight of our lives trying to rescue America, and I am willing to accept almost anyone as an ally, but the barebones minimum is that people who voted for Trump FUCKING DO HAVE TO FUCKING ADMIT THEY WERE FUCKING WRONG.
Yaup.
No more. Get out of the maga cult or get out of the way.
Encapsulating people in these little ideological bubbles and walling them off from one another with technological barriers in order to more cheaply extract labor from them is more-or-less the thesis of “The Network State”, the guiding doctrine behind the modern Trump administration.
You need your Red Team and your Blue Team to be fully alienated from one another, insisting that each side is this horrifying inhuman entity incapable of reconciling with the other. And then you can have the Gray Team - the Objectivist neutral rent-seeking arbiters - moving between them as overseers and police agents, to extract surplus and compel obedience by implicitly setting the rules by which the Reds and the Blues live.
MAGA exists as this hyperactive immune system, intended to polarize a segment of the population against the whole. And on the flip side, you have these ultra-orthodox neoliberals doing the same thing but from a “Woke” side of the fence. They’re both fiercely capitalist. They’re both fiercely identitarian. And they’re both obsessed with compelling obedience from the top down - whether its crushing campus student protests for being antisemitic or purging RINOs from state and local governments or consolidating media markets into mega-corporate behemoths like Sinclair and Clear Channel and the Gates/Bezos monolith.
You’re not going to get people to leave the MAGA Cult because they’re not going to hear you. They’re segregated and pumped full of anxiety such that they don’t dare leave their enclosures. At the same time, you’re being walled in yourself. You’re told not to set foot inside a church or show up at a rival political rally or otherwise have any social contact with anyone in a Red Hat (except to participate in some kind of retaliatory violence). Don’t talk to your neighbors if you see them showing the wrong kind of swag. And always be wearing your own colors, so people can instantly identify which team you’re on in public.
Its an ugly state of affairs.
Thank you for the interesting read but i don’t think this forgive and forget narrative fixes the problem. I wish I had an alternative I could provide because it seems irreconcilable when this “other side” advocates against your existence to your face.
i don’t think this forgive and forget narrative fixes the problem
I don’t think this is forgive-and-forget. Its recognizing the source of the conflict as fascist propaganda, not some intrinsic impulse within some subset of people.
Rather than trying to debate bro your parents on Trumpism, try cutting their cable line and see how their opinions shift without a steady diet of reactionary TV.
I don’t disagree with you.
