I often think what life in this continent would be like had there never been any colonialism. But if Europe still had contact with the native peoples and their nations through trade. How would the people here have evolved?
Depending on how long they would be isolated.
Central american powers were starting to play with the Empire idea when europeans came along.
They might have had a Genghis Kang sooner or later.
Also contact by trade would have been almost as lethal as the conquest. Remember that most death were because the diseases the europeans brought with them.
Europe would be the singularly industrialized hub of the world. North America would look like Africa, South America and much of Asia.
there would be things like passenger pigeons that wouldnt go extinct, plus rare plants that became extinct due to development in a specific area where it only survived.
You might enjoy the book 1491 a lot - it goes over what populations existed before contact, and even explores the period when people would make decisions between whether they would stay a colonial resident or join a native country - and vice versa. Turns out it was very much down to the person.
Of course, it also has the mind-blowing fact that we lost roughly 92% of the population of the Americas to disease - which is how the Europeans walked into the “New World” so easily, but also why they had to start importing slaves from Africa. The author frames it as if we just suddenly lost all of China - and laments the cultural exchange we’ve lost as a result.
10/10 read, would recommend if you like the topic.
Mann’s follow-up book 1493 is equally good.
I’ve got a lot of family in the Caribbean and it’s interesting how much of the flora and food culture has also been changed by resettlement.
Where my family is, the tradition cuisine is generally African or Indian influenced and many of the veggies and fruits were brought from these places. Even botanical gardens that are trying to create a wild food forest are doing so with mangoes, papaya, breadfruit, etc which were all Asian imports. When I go there, I’m often left wondering what these islands looked like in centuries past and what the cuisine was.
like the carribean monk seal that became extinct, the haiwain one is very endangered. i was looking at flora and fauna, so many went extinct when humans came to islands.( like giant and another solenedons which became extinct pretty recently), plus the related nosphentes which has its lineages traced back to the cretaceous.
It’s really unfortunate how humans seems to make every ecosystem homogenous. Sometimes intentionally killing things, sometimes bringing things that remind them of home (North America’s starlings and mute swans for example). I really try to maintain a garden full of plants native to my area to support local insect life, but it really feels like using a Nerf gun for a fire fight, as when I step off my property it’s invasive things everywhere.
Wow!!! Ok I’m definitely reading this.
Thanks so much!
Whatever you do, don’t read Guns, Germs and Steel. It’s just fucking nonsense.
Got it. 👍
Probably using the same system that they evolved elsewhere. Humans be humans
I wonder.
Even Japan had colonization from the mainland peoples that drastically changed the native culture which seemed to resemble much more the American native people’s culture.
he is the one who can really wear the “make America great again” hat
Make America Turtle Island Again
Land Back.
death to america
Are you sure about that?
You mean before the genocide? It’s a pretty good guess.
No tribes totally wiping another out before then? History is not that kind. I doubt it was a utopic land before someone else arrived.
“those dirty savages were killing each other before they were invaded and killed by noble
white peopleEuropeans who brought civilization and peace? I’m just asking questions here I’m definitely not making excuses or trying to diminish what happened”Humans are pretty horrifically violent across time. For example before the Spanish arrived there were the Aztecs who were wiping out entire tribes, enslaving them, and torturing them quite gruesomely. I’m not saying the Spanish are good guys or that the Aztecs are bad guys. I’m specifically saying humans are violent and metal as fuck essentially regardless of circumstance.
People been enslaving, genociding, torturing, raping one another long before anyone even lived in Europe.
And then the Europeans did it even harder.
Yes they did, so far. It’s kinda a function of the fact that there were just more people. It’s hard to genocide 2 million people when the global human population is only 10,000 for instance. Now back to the actual point I was making, these behaviors aren’t new, not even new to homo sapiens much less whites or westerners.
There was 100 million Native Americans before the Europeans showed up bucko, lol. Learn some history before you spout off. It was the largest genocide in human history.
Historically speaking, it heavily depended on where you were. Supposedly many East-Cast tribes, especially the Cherokee were already conglomerates of several other tribes.
Horses were also a new element in the world of Native Americans, and surely had a good bit to do with leveling the playing field between warring tribes.
source: old man wisdom, dyor
All i’m saying is there’s no violence that westerners have done that wasn’t already done at some other time before they arrived. The difference is the distance, the scale and of course the cultural and ethnic differences. I’ve found that the more different the dominating group is from the victim group the more well atrocities are remembered. It’s still ethnically visible for hundreds upon hundreds of years. Like for instance the Aztecs were extremely brutal in wiping out other tribes and enslavement as well as torture but no one really complains about that today. It’s all a wash. Their people and the people they tormented are hard to tell apart now in contrast to people of Spanish dissent and of course to this day there’s a white preference in the region. It’s just easier to see and draw lines when people look more visibly different.
I see. There is no difference except for the differences.
Like for instance the Aztecs were extremely brutal in wiping out other tribes and enslavement as well as torture but no one really complains about that today.
In contrast to the Aztecs the colonial powers are still in power and are still enacting violence and genocide.
If you want to argue a point I did not make then that changes the discussion. My point was, and still is that these acts are not unique to westerners. There have been lands controlled by others much longer than 500 years. There’s been rape, genocide, enslavement, and torture long before a human set foot in Europe. These behaviors aren’t unique to white or European people or honestly even homo sapiens.
I was directly replying to a statement you made. Did I misunderstand that statement?
No, the difference is the level of violence. They also brought germ warfare and gunpowder.
That isn’t really what I was arguing but if you want to change the discussion then I’m open to it.
?
It wasn’t really a small group of conquistadors that took down the Aztecs. It was the conquistadors along with a bunch of tribes that were willing to ally themselves with some strange men that spoke a different language and had a completely different culture. The conquistadors were able to find allies because of how horrible the Aztecs were.
European history is full of examples of tribes invading from somewhere else. Those invaders were doing so because they had to leave where they lived was invaded by someone else. It’s similar in pre-Columbian America.
It’s only when cities started having strong walls and organized militaries that the ethnic cleansing and genocide became less commonplace, enough so these atrocities became noteworthy and better documented. Humans are tribalistic and violent, there’s no special ethnicities that were above being that way.
there were wars yes. “totally wiping another out” tho? that was a european import.
even if it was the case that First Nations were genociding each other (which again, it’s not), that still doesn’t justify european colonialism in any way.
Are you sure about that? Killing off an entire tribe, enslaving the women, not a new concept in the slightest.
I didn’t say it was a utopia. When people refer to a genocide of Native Americans, people usually know which one.
I mean yeah the difference was that westerners came from further away, had a very different culture, ethnicity, language and so on, and most notably subjugated people on a much larger scale.
In other words, the Europeans did it harder.
So far, yes. Although other regions and people have had their own atrocities not to be ignored by history or awareness. My point still stands that these behaviors are not and have never been uniquely western or even uniquely homo sapien. Nature is fucked and so far, the more intelligent an organism becomes the more fucked it gets.
So the point of your statement is to minimize the atrocities committed by the Europeans on the natives, got it.
He was the genocider before he became the genocidee
Fairly certain existing people didn’t use resource extraction to fuel imperialism worldwide and invent and perpetuate the trans Atlantic slave trade, yes.
There was still a slave trade in North and South America prior to the Europeans coming, it was just their own people being enslaved rather than an importation of people from Africa. South and Central American empires were not all sunshine and rainbows; although North America did not have a standing civilization as far as I know, the tribes that did exist enslaved and killed each other constantly. People are shitty regardless of the continent they are born on.
Did I say these things did not exist before then?
That really isn’t what I was arguing but if you want to change the discussion then I’m open to it.
Really ironic reply considering the post you were replying to didn’t mention genocide or any particular reason it was better.
There would have been no genocide in the modern view if it weren’t for those crass, profit seeking, and bloodthirsty Europeans that invaded. They really need to take the responsibility for their actions. And the bulk of that genocide occurred before the US existed because the diseases those Europeans brought to the Americas that the existing inhabitants had no immunity to.
Yep. The genocide stopped the second the USA declared independence. It did not continue for even a second after that, and there wasn’t a single other genocide since then.
Truly perfect comment to write on July 4th. Uncle Sam would be proud of you. If you also massacred a bunch of children, that is.
No it did not. And I never said it did. But the actions of those Europeans that colonized the Americas, (and anywhere else they set foot), are still felt yet to this day. And those Europeans have massacred their share to children also. They just sweep that part under the rug. They even added to the lexicon of war by giving us WW1 and WW2.
Right, the genocide definitely stopped in 1776. Yup. That was the end of it. Mhm.
I never said that it did. But the European powers never stopped their genocides due to colonizations either. The apple seldom falls far from the tree. But the Europeans seldom get the credit for all the things they did to bring the world to this point.
Genocide requires intention, the ginormous loss of life because of diseases is not, in a legal sense, a genocide. Not arguing that Europe colonizing the Americas wasn’t like a genocide, in some places it certainly was — but the people dying of disease is not a genocide, more like a mass-extinction event.
That is certainly a comfort to all those that died.
Probably not but a word like genocide shouldn’t be watered down, especially not if there are currently genocides happening intentionally in Palesta, Sudan and Xinjiang.
They really need to take the responsibility
The people that colonized the americas died a long ago lmao
They did die a long time ago. But the effects of their colonial actions reverberate down through history.
The point is that they can’t take responsability if they are dead
You’re almost there. Do the living bear responsibility “unto the 7th generation”-- to steal a butchered quote from the Christian bible-- for acts of the dead? Or do we all need to leave the dead to themselves and concentrate on the sins of today instead.
