- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
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Because as we know, the only way for companies owned by the richest person on Earth to do business is if they get hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer money first.
As if giving it all to Comcast and Spectrum for the 47th time will make things any better? Starlink is actually something accessible for a lot of these people, while legacy ISPs just pocket the money and claim its too hard to serve rural customers.
Anything is better than Starlink, Starlink is just extreme useless pollution for something that normal ISPs can achieve.
The government needs to step in and make internet more of a utility like in like every other successful country.
There are actual use cases for satellite internet. I heard from an evacuee from the Northwest Territories in Canada here that he was basically only able to get updates on what was happening—i.e. what roads weren’t on fire and where evacuation centers were—because of a couple of people with starlinks. There are huge areas up there with little to no internet infrastructure, and this summer much of that was damaged in the fires.
Ground infrastructure is expensive to run out to extreme rural areas, and it’s also vulnerable in different ways from satellite infrastructure. In the US, yeah, it’s dense enough that ISPs mostly need to get their shit together, but there are very large areas where running a cable has a lot of problems.
You don’t even have to go extremely rural to get no internet choices.
I am 20 minutes, or 15 miles, from a town of 150,000 people down 1 of the 4 major roads leading out of town. Without cellular or starlink we would have nothing.
Right, but the point is, instead of going to Starlink that taxpayer money could be used to get access to where you’re at.
Comcast will take the taxpayer money, run a shit 5mbps line to the rural area, charge you out the ass for it and pocket the difference from the subsidies.
They already did that…we gave the telecoms almost 1 trillion dollars…we do not need to be giving them more.
That makes sense, but Starlink is also extremely expensive and I don’t see the price being comparable honestly.
For your first case while evacuation and such, there are alternatives and you shouldn’t need full internet access for situations like that. (obviously this isn’t the case right now)
From everything that has been posted on the US and what I’ve seen with ISPs and such, satellite internet is not necessary. I hate Starlink with a passion for what the consequences are, I hate looking up in a dark night and being able to see a giant row of Starlink satellites and I hate how much it pollutes even outside of the Earth. It’s not necessary and I will always be for just other wireless communication or straight up wires.
For your first case while evacuation and such, there are alternatives and you shouldn’t need full internet access for situations like that. (obviously this isn’t the case right now)
People absolutely need internet access in evacuation situations. They need information to know where it’s safe to go, where they can get help, what routes are still open, whether it’s safe to return home, whether their home still exists… in some cases the only communication methods are either internet-based or literally flying a plane in, there aren’t even roads to some communities that need to be evacuated. There is way too much information people need to be able to rely on local communication methods like radio.
And that’s really one of the only other options in these situations. The fibre line (pretty much singular, because the cost to run fibre over thousands of kilometers is enormous) going through the NWT was destroyed in the fires as a fire was approaching Yellowknife. Cell towers can literally melt from the heat of some of these fires. Ground infrastructure is vulnerable to all of the climate disasters our world is currently facing. And that’s ignoring it getting destroyed by actively hostile actors like in Ukraine.
Do Starlink and Musk suck? Absolutely. Fuck them. But satellite internet is increasingly showing itself to be a necessity, and to think otherwise really underestimates the size of our world and the vulnerability of our infrastructure. We need better management of it, but we definitely need it.
I said shouldn’t.
It’s not expensive compared to the alternatives. It costs exactly what I’m paying Comcast for my cable internet here in suburbia at $120. Companies like Hughesnet will charge you $200/mo for 20GB of data at 2Mbps if it isn’t cloudy out.
My coworkers mother in rural SW Washington signed up after I recommended it for her to him. Previously, she couldn’t even watch Netflix or YouTube with traditional satellite, and now she’s getting 300Mbps for less money than she was paying before.
I meant comparable to wired up internet or proper wireless towers in infrastructure cost, the end user cost is absurd anywhere in the US and it’s not worth talking about.
That’s observably false, though. If infrastructure costs were really that much cheaper, ISPs would already be serving these people at a lower price point.
I’ll leave it to Canada to fund it then
Can achieve but don’t and won’t. You might as well be arguing that rural people don’t deserve access to the internet because that’s the only legitimate alternative.
No, it’s not and you need to read what I said in the second part of my comment.
And if you’re going to be like that, I do believe rural people don’t deserve access to the internet if it means severely polluting the sky, space and the earth while it’s not necessary.
The US government can easily step in, it’s just hard to imagine that ever happening.
The US government can easily step in, it’s just hard to imagine that ever happening.
Which is why it isn’t a legitimate solution. Starlink exists now.
Why are you so concerned about pollution in LEO but not pollution from digging a million miles of wire and trenches or chopping down forests full of trees, all of which regularly sustain damage and need replacement?
That’s why I said it’s hard to imagine that ever happening currently, it doesn’t mean it isn’t a legitimate solution.
On Earth you can compensate for the pollution caused by laying in wires, and if this was done by the government it would probably be near or at powerlines (when they exist, which they should) and it could just be part of normal maintenance for example.
None of this can be done with LEO, it’s getting polluted up there and these satellites just get burnt up. We’re removing precious resources from our planet to burn them up for no reason and causing pollution on Earth and outside of it, it makes no sense.
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That’s completely wrong, for the ISPs it usually isn’t worth achieving and is why the government should step in.
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And also simply not necessary to have as many satellites as Starlink does needed to cover the ocean and the rare spots where wires can’t go.
And we really need that 4K UHD porn to load faster on the hole planet, including the oceans.
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It’s not a scam. Satellite internet was extremely expensive and slow last time I checked a few years before starlink. Yeah , musk is garbage but starlink is actually helping a lot of people worldwide.
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The money would have come from the Rural Digital Opportunity Fund program (RDOF), but the FCC writes that Starlink wasn’t able to “demonstrate that it could deliver the promised service” and that giving the subsidy to it wouldn’t be “the best use of limited Universal Service Fund dollars.”
The FCC decision sounds like a good thing in this case, also because Starlink isn’t being managed responsibly
The technology itself is cool, and I hope some other companies can build off that work to meet that need. There are a lot of existing companies that take advantage of those living in rural areas, many of which don’t have other options or much disposable income
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*billions
Yep almost a trillion dollars. Was 900 billion something.
We share your pain in Canada with our telecom companies
Starlink is currently the only internet functioning for the Ukrainian army.
ITAR…go look it up. And the UA still uses it for good and so does everyone there, they just cannot use it as a direct weapon. Get off the musk hate dick… it’s clouding you and apparently a bunch of people’s judgement.
Like most people on the Internet they don’t want to hear about laws that cause outcomes different than what they want. The Musk hate over UA and StarLink is just another example of it. ITAR has been around a long time and for DAMN good reasons.
I can’t stand the guy either, but there are way more valid reasons to hate on him than what people love to bitch about.
It’s probably the most wasteful way of providing internet imaginable since they have to send satellites up by the dozen every year for them to burn in the atmosphere only several years lates. Yeah I don’t think it’s a good business model at all, especially considering they haven’t been able to turn a profit and rely on subsidies.
Yet many towns where I live saw broadband, yes, broadband, not fiber, for the first time in their life thanks to Starlink. It’s easy to talk when coming from a place of privilege.
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I would not be able to live where I am without starlink. There isn’t even cell signal for 14 km…
I don’t like that some portion of the money I’m paying goes towards his insanity. But I put up with it to live in a peaceful forest and continue my job.
Demand more of your local government instead of pulling the privilege card.
The government keeps giving money to traditionally ISPs to expand broadband and they simply lie and say they did to take the money. It’s private industry fucking us just as much.
I’m not disagreeing, but who can stand up against corporate bullying? The government. Make the government do it. The corporate world gets away with it because the politicians turn a blind eye because they’re not held accountable because not enough people stand together. People have bled for the rights that “privileged” people have, it didn’t come free.
If ISPs weren’t greedy bastards that don’t care the slightest about their users and gave everyone fiber then yeah, it’s wasteful. Sadly, for a lot of people in rural and inaccessible areas and on sea, it’s the only way to access internet.
Oh no! It’s expensive! Wait. Isn’t he the chairman of a vertically integrated space shuttle and satellite international conglomerate? Why are Americans footing the bill for any of this?
You might go back and reread the comment you replied to. They stated that legacy satellite internet was expensive to the tune of $200/mo for 2mbps speeds and a 20GB monthly data cap.
But he can pay for it.
it absolutely is a scam… you WANT it to not be a scam, but you are incorrect…
I think it’s the other way around…you WANT everything he touches to be a scam.
I don’t like the guy either, but Starlink is a real, actual product that tons of people are using just fine right now. Also, his rockets are allowing the US to continue to send personnel to the space station without relying on Russia. That is not a scam either.
by trying to go with “i know you are but what am i”, you just prove how childish your belief in him is
Actually, failing to address any of my points and just hammering on the “Musk bad” seems childish to me.
you have no points… i’ve seen their numbers… the subscriber growth is non-existent… revenue is abysmal… the costs are exactly exorbitant… there is nothing to hide… it is a failure hoping for a rescue… think what you like…
the subscriber growth is non-existent
WTF are you on about?
In January of 2022 SL had about 245,000 subscribers. In January of 2023 they had 1,000,000 subscribers. In September of 2023 SL had over 2,000,000 subscribers. They’ve increased by a factor of 10 in less than 24 months and doubled in the last 9!
Musk is an ass but what your saying about SL just isn’t true.
That’s what Starship is for. A giant, cheap, stainless steel space truck built by blue collar welders that will vomit out hundreds of them before returning to Earth intact to pick up some more.
The whole Mars thing is just for PR. He has a different use for it. That thing ain’t ever making it to Mars.
Why would I want it to not be a scam ? I don’t even use it. Years ago, I heard about internet satellite and got curious, so I searched a bit about it and found out it was really expensive. I don’t remember exactly but it was more or less in the 100s of dollars monthly for an abysmal speed like " up to 8mb" or something.
If anyone used internet satellite a few years before starlink was launched please correct me if I am wrong.
You’re not far off, my parents have a 5gb data cap, about 1-2mbps down, and pings in the 500s.
I don’t know how much they’re charged, but Starlink is cheaper and better in all aspects
I had a neighbor ask me about my Starlink. They said they had ViaSat and were posting $180 a month for a 2gb data cap with 2-3mb speeds and would have to purchase more for overages. Internet was a requirement because she worked from home. I used to have Hughesnet and they have the same structure.
Yes, Musk sucks, but Starlink has been a game changer for us rural folk.
So it’s far worse than I remember. Honestly, I can see the 1-2 mb limit be enough for very casual use but a 5gb data cap for a month is beyond a joke.
Huges internet has categorically been a fucking robbery scheme since inception.
How about that CGI car in orbit in front of a swim screen? There are still a lot of people who haven’t figured that one out yet.
What it accomplished is manifold, but mainly to get investors to pony up, and creditors to extend credit, and the fan boys to fan the flames.
CC: @misk@sopuli.xyz
TIL: The majority of Lemmys have never lived an hour from the nearest population center, down a dirt road, on a few hundred acres of wilderness. I fucking HATE musk and I still have an RV kit in my basement so when I’m traveling around hours from anywhere, Starlink works perfectly.
Today you learned that the majority of people don’t live in the middle of nowhere?
Of course they don’t, by definition, if a bunch of people lived there, it wouldn’t be the middle of nowhere.
Lmao you’re being a pedantic dick bc you know what they meant… and I’m cracking up enjoying everything about it
Yeah, Musk has gone insane, anyone can see that.
But Musk aside, LEO satellites are still really the only viable and economical solution to the problem of broadband in rural areas, and Starlink seems to work great.
Also, the objection that resulted in pulling this funding looks pretty bullshit. Several other broadband providers are getting these same funding deals for doing basically nothing.
Musk has gone insane
No, he hasn’t. He’s just a bog-standard capitalist doing bog-standard capitalist things.
Explicitly not the point of my post…
My partner’s family lives on a dirt road between a corn field and cow pasture… a full 1.5 hour drive from the nearest mid-sized city… they have gigabit fiber…
Not saying that their situation is currently typical, but id argue it is indeed a sign that good internet is slowly but surely coming available to everyone.
I live two hours from a city, waaaay up in the Alps and I have gigabit fibre for€40 a month lol
Your infrastructure sucks donkeyballs 😂
two hours is waaaay out there guys!
My sides are in orbit! Here is a side-by side of the Alps
next to a small section of the American Rockies,
which is still nothing compared to Canada (yes there are people in that big empty area).
No offense, but true European rural doesn’t exist.
No offense, but true European rural doesn’t exist.
Bro, come to northern Sweden and say that again lol
Come to the most uninhabitable place on the continent for some real rural living!
No where in Europe is “remote.”
Come to the South West US where you can drive 100 miles in any direction and barely see another human.
Or maybe don’t go there and then complain about the obvious shortfalls of the place. The rural exodus happened for a reason.
It’s not a shortfall thanks to Starlink. Are you following along?
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That doesn’t make any sense. Taxpayer money was supposed to fix this over a decade ago.
Middle of nowhere between fields: I have 5g router and 300+mbps
If you’re pulling 5G you’re not remote.
Brother, we have wildly different definitions of “nowhere” if you get 5G. When I lived in a rural shithole in the US, I had to drive 100 miles to start picking up 5G signals (though that was just before the pandemic, so maybe 5G coverage has improved greatly in the past 3 years).
Closest town is 55km away
Shit man, I used to commute almost that exact distance each way. Anything under triple digits is practically in-town in many places.
Yeah me too, untill COVID and the digital acceleration to WFH
Doesn’t match my experience. The worst thing about it is ping, but download is mostly always around 100-200.
Yeah, I’ve always seen at least 20 down, never as low as 1 Mbps the grandparent comment claimed. I usually see roughly 100 Mbps down, though.
That’s based on using it in a few different places in our RV over the summer, some with obstructions from trees in some spots. Regardless of the actual speed, my wife and I were both able to telework and hold conference calls simultaneously without an issue - and my wife would use video (I kept it off, but she used it).
Really? Shit. I was planning to move to starlink but let me do some research.
I had Starlink too and it was definitely unreliable. It’s also absolutely atrocious in any kind of weather like heavy rain or snow.
It’s better than nothing for sure, but definitely look into it more, especially if you’ll be relying on it for work.
It’s also generally better than dsl.
It’s faster than my old fiber connection through Telus up here in Canadia and also means I can look at any hamlet with power as a viable place to live now. We are never down for more the 2 seconds a day.
Because it’s satellite!
Absolutely, but Musk specifically said weather wouldn’t be a problem like regular satellites, which was just not true from my experience.
Overall though, I just think people should be aware that it’s not a good replacement for if you already have access to other Internet services. I’ve seen people discuss how they want to ditch Comcast for it. It’s a lot more expensive and definitely not as consistent. Again, it totally has an audience and purpose, pros and cons.
DISH says the same crap about satellite TV. Physics doesn’t lie.
My parents have starlink and I’m really impressed with it. It’s very reliable
I was shocked when he got a gov’t contract after he admitted to all that fuckery in Ukraine. Wtf is happening in gov’t???
My parents had it. Average was about 40mbps over a 60gb download, minimums were in the low 20s, and it topped out at around 80-100mbps. A fuck of a lot better than 10mbps down 750kbps up, their only other option. I hate Elon as much as the next guy, but starlink is awesome.
i imagine that’s a product of the technology and not so much the company. the problems with satellite internet are just physics. it’s probably stupid to go with something like this in an area that has fiber available.
Guys, please be nice to Elon. He’s having a bad day, his attempted cover story to boost TSLA isn’t working, and he’s coming down.
That stock chart is nothing terrible. Sideways on the 6 months and the 5-year is pretty good. I don’t think he’s suffering.
trying to get another one of his boondoggles financed by Congress i see… nothing but charlatan under those robes…
musk is one of the richest man alive, why does he need subsidies to do his job??
clearly you’re not rich. the rich stay rich by spendng other people’s money.
this guy knows material dialectics
This isn’t really a great argument. Subsidies are there to promote the things we want to come to fruition. Want your people to have solar? Subsidies for putting one on your roof. You want more electric cars on the road even though more expensive? Subsidies.
You want a billionaire to help a new technology reach people he wouldn’t bother with? Subsidies.
So we do that by giving them even more fucking money, instead of taking it away when they do a shitty thing, like ruin our atmosphere with fossil fuels.
musk is one of the richest man alive, why does he need subsidies to do his job??
Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor. Next question …
Aside from the bit of personal enjoyment I get from seeing Elon take an L… Starlink only meets the classification as “broadband internet” in optimal conditions. The average experience just plain doesn’t qualify and it is openly acknowledged that performance will get worse with more traffic. It may be better than nothing for some, but it is clearly not sustainable. The money would be better spent running lines because at least that would be consistent and long lasting even if it is more expensive.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The money would have come from the Rural Digital Opportunity Fund program (RDOF), but the FCC writes that Starlink wasn’t able to “demonstrate that it could deliver the promised service” and that giving the subsidy to it wouldn’t be “the best use of limited Universal Service Fund dollars.”
That was the same reason the FCC gave when it rejected Starlink’s bid last year, which led to this appeal.
SpaceX had previously won the bidding to roll out 100Mbps download and 20Mbps upload “low-latency internet to 642,925 locations in 35 states,” funded by the RDOF.
“This applicant had failed to meet its burden to be entitled to nearly $900 million in universal service funds for almost a decade.” FCC commissioner Brendan Carr dissented, writing that “the FCC did not require — and has never required — any other award winner to show that it met its service obligation years ahead of time.”
But his funding plan was slashed by the time it became law, with the final version offering no money for locally-run internet service.
Christopher Cardaci, head of legal at SpaceX, writes in a letter to the FCC that “Starlink is arguably the only viable option to immediately connect many of the Americans who live and work in the rural and remote areas of the country where high-speed, low-latency internet has been unreliable, unaffordable, or completely unavailable, the very people RDOF was supposed to connect.”
The original article contains 296 words, the summary contains 235 words. Saved 21%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Quite excited to see what some competition will do in this space (no pun intended) with Amazon’s upcoming deployment.
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Yeah it’s totally ruined. I can’t even see the sky anymore at night.
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At least for us amateurs satellite trails get completely rejected out during image stacking. They’ll definitely be more of a problem for professional observatories, especially large survey scopes like Vera Rubin
Bruh, are you really going to prioritize a singular type of hobby photography over access to a vital service such as the internet for millions of people? That’s prime NIMBYism.
They’ve done plenty to help mitigate issues with terrestrial observatories. You could just as easily argue their rocketry advancements have made space much more accessible for the human race, which offsets any remaining harm to research telescopes.
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How are we fucking up our ability to go to space with these LEO satellites? That’s quite comical coming from someone calling other people’s statements a “smooth-brained take.”
It absolutely is NIMBY when you sit here on the internet arguing that rural folks should have their internet access revoked because it’s “spoiling your view.” What difference would it make to any of your listed points if it were an international endeavor rather than a private one?
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Yes, I think millions of people around the world shouldn’t have their access to a public good limited by the decisions of two billionaires from one country. I don’t think that’s a particularly strange take?
If there are going to be tens of thousands of satellites fucking up everyone’s views of the sky, that should be at least be done with some attempt to gain a social licence first.
That’s significantly less of a concern than assisting in elevating a few billion people out of poverty
Starlink has lifted people out of poverty?
The internet most assuredly has. Idk about Starlink’s performance at all outside of Ukraine.
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My post said:
Quite excited to see what some competition will do in this space (no pun intended) with Amazon’s upcoming deployment.
You hate Musk, we get it. Now, try to stay on topic
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The concept is literally working right now.
Also, I’ve read the article. I’m not sure why you’re trying to make this chain about musk?
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I imagine Amazon will be the one taking your tax dollars to do business. They famously have no money and need American tax dollars generated by working class labor in order to survive.
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Republicans historically so not want to use their tax money to provide for the “undeserving” both locally and globally.
If he’s not opposed to his tax dollars being used in such a way, and instead opposes technology advances as a whole, one wonders why he would be in a technology community
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Yes if you change words in a sentence you can make sentences mean different things. That is indeed how words work.
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For an operating company that’s the kiss of death. I predict Starlink will be bought by the US government and there won’t be a hell of a lot of profit.
Unlikely that it’ll be purchased by DoD, but death’s kiss was given when Elon held satellite internet access of the Ukrainian Armed Forces hostage while they were engaged in a hot war and being supported by DoD. That’s not how the Defense Industry operates. If you’re in for a penny, you’re in for a pound.
I can pretty much guarantee you that the Pentagon immediately started a lot of conversations with established contractors about rapidly expediting their own LEO constellations, and promising help on the regulatory side.
It may not have been immediately apparent, but it was there. It honestly wouldn’t have mattered as much for the business, except for the fact that SpaceX is entirely dependent upon government contracts, and the military is a huge part of that.
He didn’t hold it hostage.
He didn’t turn it off, it was never on. He didn’t intervene in an attack, he just did nothing.
It’s even questionable if he can legally allow Ukraine to drop one on a boat and use it as a weapon, and it was against the terms of use.
The DoD failed to sign an agreement with SpaceX which left them in that awkward position. The DoD has now done so and it’s a non issue now. The DoD is the one allowing all these combat uses now as it should have been from day 1
When Musk cut off Ukraine, the Pentagon informed him that they were immediately purchasing a minor controlling stake in the, currently, private company. Service to Ukraine was restored the next day.
That’s how “capitalism” works apparently.
I also assume that’s why NVidia did it’s sudden about face and fell right in line when the generals threatened to own them the next day.
It’s all just rich people getting reminded they’re only rich, or alive, because the government allows them to be.
I’m honestly at a loss with trying to discern whether you just honestly don’t understand the situation and how corporations/defense contractors and government work, if you’re unwittingly repeating a source of intentional disinformation, or if you’re actually maliciously trying to pump some counterfactual narrative.
I think it’s a mixture of the first two, which is unfortunate because the word count that is required to correct all of that bad information is a lot more then I’m willing to type out on my phone screen.
So, I’ll just point out you can either own a controlling interest, or a minor stake, but the two are mutually exclusive, and at no point was either on the table for purchase from the Pentagon.
Jesus, the absolute state of misinformation in your post…
I don’t know that Iridium is still working. I think it’s been decommissioned. But, the US military has been looking for its replacement for years. Now, they could launch their own, or buy a network. Musk not getting RUS funds and losing a thousand satellites from orbit a year makes Starlink a prime candidate.
They didn’t cut off Internet to Ukraine. They had to stop the military from using it in an offensive way, which is ITAR, it wasn’t even musk who pulled the plug, it was a bunch of lawyers that had to make that call.
Starlink is a defense contractor, ITAR was bullshit reasoning and not at all applicable. That’s like saying Raytheon missiles can’t be used to attack foreign targets, because ITAR, or even more accurately, Ukrainian munitions with American IC’s or copper can’t be used.
But that guy’s comments about “the generals bought a minor stake the next day” is also just as full of shit.
Actually, no, his comments about generals buying stakes was actually more bullshit, because at least that ITAR garbage had mainstream traction, so I at least understand why someone would believe it.
The fuck are you talking about starlink is not a defense contractor… it’s like saying Microsoft is a defense contractor because the military uses windows…ITAR was absolutely in play here…
SpaceX and Starlink are both defense contractors…
https://fortune.com/2023/12/08/spacex-arctic-military-tests-pentagon-contracts/
Microsoft is also a defense contractor…
https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-big-win-pentagon-signs-massive-1-76bn-contract/
Also, what do you think defense contractor means…? Because your example by itself, and without the other areas of defense Microsoft is engaged in, is a defense contract: providing software and services to the military.
Oh, and thanks for confirming my earlier assumptions.
Starlink was not sold or provided to Ukraine under a defense contract… defense contractors who are labeled as such do not typically work with the public directly. You’re definition of a defense contractor apparently is any company who has worked on a DOJ or DOD bid…which means basically all companies in the USA. This doesn’t magically make them not have to follow civilian regulations. ITAR is in play here, just because starlink has defense contracts, doesn’t magically give them a pass on other regulations.
Cereal companies get defense contracts FFS…that doesn’t make them a defense contractor.
Why would working a DOJ bid make a company a defense contractor…?
JFC…you might actually need a reeducation camp, but instead of propaganda, it’s just a forced repeat of K-12 education.
Musk doesn’t listen to lawyers, look at everything he has done at Twitter.
You’re right. He got that advice from Mohamed bin Salman.
