“Bethesda covers its arse in anticipation of a bunch of terminally online American teenagers who just learnt the word ‘nazi’ and would use it to describe a fuckin nun if it made them feel a bit morally superior for ten seconds”
It should be noted that a lot of their blunders later in the war can be traced back to Hitler (or one of his sycophants) getting involved and overruling far more experienced Generals, many of whom were not party members. It could also be argued that the economy they set up, while impressive given the state of Germany post-WWI, was an entirely unsustainable war economy that relied very heavily on slave labor. That’s not to say they were completely incompetent, but they did vastly overestimate their own abilities and made many mistakes as a result.
It’s worse than that. Hitler’s entire economic plan relied on heavily burrowing money from other countries with the intent to pay it back with money plundered from conquered nations.
As for the people having better lives, well, not really. Earnings increased for workers but mainly from working even longer hours. The actual hourly wage fell on the level of the Great Depression. And due to less imported goods, consumer products like food and clothing also had to be rationed.
Who was better off by a lot however were large cartels and monopolies crushing small businesses thanks to the eridications of unions and, later, forced labor in the concentration camps.
So, while the (war) economy did boom, that didn’t really translate to better lives for common people (even before the war started).
Indeed, they made plenty of mistakes, otherwise they would have won the war.
Therein lies the problem, because even if they somehow executed an absolutely perfect strategy they would not have won the war, not in the long run at least. I agree that Wolfenstein doesn’t glorify them since its reasoning for them winning is outlandish sci-fi technology, but a lot of media that assumes they could have won is glorifying, even if indirectly.
Yeah they were an empire run like and by meth addicts. Terrifying to face, shockingly clever, and headed directly to destruction with the only question being whether they or someone else landed the killing blow on them.
These were not hyper competent tacticians, it was a society that hyped itself into a blood frenzy, convinced of their own superiority and that they’ll be destroyed if they don’t destroy everyone else first. That’s a terrifying threat, but so’s a meth addict with a knife and paranoid delusions.
They were hemorrhaging competence through their Nazi bullshit. Yeah they had some people like von Braun, but they lost people like Einstein (and special shout-out to Fermi who defected from Italy because his wife was Jewish). Additionally their behavior in held territory actively fostered partisan resistance and encouraged fighting to the death.
And that’s ignoring the fact that they broke the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact while at war with France and England and at war in Africa and while leaving Italy to defend itself. The Soviets were a force unto themselves having been the only army to trounce Russia in centuries.
You’re misunderstanding the argument, but that’s just the nature of brief forum exchanges.
Think of it as a continuous depiction of the Nazis as hyper-competent or full of geniuses unintentionally playing into the supremacy narrative, even when Joe Everyman is gunning them down. I don’t agree that Wolfenstein is pro-Nazi but it is a factor in public perception that creators need to consider when repeated in a hundred different games or movies.
Even just repeating things like “At least Mussolini made the trains run on time” plays into it, especially when it’s a lie, just like the Wunderwaffe programs or the Nazi “miraculous economic recovery” which was just making people work longer hours and deficit spending.
Here’s my problem with wolfenstein. The daat yichud or whatever was a little too close to the secret Jewish cabal that real life Hitler believed/claimed was working behind the scenes manipulating society for is own gains. I don’t think the series is pro Nazi, I’d have to be stupid to believe that, but I feel this particular plot point was a little tone deaf in a historical context.
But their while point was that they were super-smarties who made shit through communion with God directly, and the devices they made weren’t to be used
They’re an ancient Jewish group yes, but otherwise nothing at all like Hitler’s cabal bullshit and way closer to something like an ancient “secret cult”, made Jewish because it’s a series about the Nazis and them only winning due to Jewish technology (and also losing eventually because of it) is part of the catharsis of the whole thing
I read them a lot more like a group of ancient nerds. Which describes Jewish people pretty well if the friends ive had in the faith are anything to go by
I guess I kinda get your point but it feels so explicitly cathartic to make what IRL we credit to Nazis usually (in media their magic is usually them diving sadistically into what others won’t, for example) that I think it’s the opposite of tone deaf
…a whole shitload of things exist? Everything from microwave ovens, to nasa space rockets, to jet engines? Shit! If the nazis weren’t so god damned evil they would have been pretty awesome…but they aren’t. You know, because of the whole evil facist racists thing.
But damn they knew how to invent stuff, and have stylish military uniforms while doing so.
If they think that, they may have a problem with what they consider glorified. They may want to avoid recognizing parallels that are far more personal to them.
If they didn’t have at least a few competent nazis, they wouldn’t have been such a threat; WW2 would be over in a month. I’m sure there were even competent Talibans and North Koreans.
“Bethesda covers its arse in anticipation of a bunch of terminally online American teenagers who just learnt the word ‘nazi’ and would use it to describe a fuckin nun if it made them feel a bit morally superior for ten seconds”
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It should be noted that a lot of their blunders later in the war can be traced back to Hitler (or one of his sycophants) getting involved and overruling far more experienced Generals, many of whom were not party members. It could also be argued that the economy they set up, while impressive given the state of Germany post-WWI, was an entirely unsustainable war economy that relied very heavily on slave labor. That’s not to say they were completely incompetent, but they did vastly overestimate their own abilities and made many mistakes as a result.
It’s worse than that. Hitler’s entire economic plan relied on heavily burrowing money from other countries with the intent to pay it back with money plundered from conquered nations.
As for the people having better lives, well, not really. Earnings increased for workers but mainly from working even longer hours. The actual hourly wage fell on the level of the Great Depression. And due to less imported goods, consumer products like food and clothing also had to be rationed.
Who was better off by a lot however were large cartels and monopolies crushing small businesses thanks to the eridications of unions and, later, forced labor in the concentration camps.
So, while the (war) economy did boom, that didn’t really translate to better lives for common people (even before the war started).
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Therein lies the problem, because even if they somehow executed an absolutely perfect strategy they would not have won the war, not in the long run at least. I agree that Wolfenstein doesn’t glorify them since its reasoning for them winning is outlandish sci-fi technology, but a lot of media that assumes they could have won is glorifying, even if indirectly.
deleted by creator
Well, that or America not electing FDR in 1936.
Yeah they were an empire run like and by meth addicts. Terrifying to face, shockingly clever, and headed directly to destruction with the only question being whether they or someone else landed the killing blow on them.
These were not hyper competent tacticians, it was a society that hyped itself into a blood frenzy, convinced of their own superiority and that they’ll be destroyed if they don’t destroy everyone else first. That’s a terrifying threat, but so’s a meth addict with a knife and paranoid delusions.
They were hemorrhaging competence through their Nazi bullshit. Yeah they had some people like von Braun, but they lost people like Einstein (and special shout-out to Fermi who defected from Italy because his wife was Jewish). Additionally their behavior in held territory actively fostered partisan resistance and encouraged fighting to the death.
And that’s ignoring the fact that they broke the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact while at war with France and England and at war in Africa and while leaving Italy to defend itself. The Soviets were a force unto themselves having been the only army to trounce Russia in centuries.
deleted by creator
You’re misunderstanding the argument, but that’s just the nature of brief forum exchanges.
Think of it as a continuous depiction of the Nazis as hyper-competent or full of geniuses unintentionally playing into the supremacy narrative, even when Joe Everyman is gunning them down. I don’t agree that Wolfenstein is pro-Nazi but it is a factor in public perception that creators need to consider when repeated in a hundred different games or movies.
Even just repeating things like “At least Mussolini made the trains run on time” plays into it, especially when it’s a lie, just like the Wunderwaffe programs or the Nazi “miraculous economic recovery” which was just making people work longer hours and deficit spending.
deleted by creator
Here’s my problem with wolfenstein. The daat yichud or whatever was a little too close to the secret Jewish cabal that real life Hitler believed/claimed was working behind the scenes manipulating society for is own gains. I don’t think the series is pro Nazi, I’d have to be stupid to believe that, but I feel this particular plot point was a little tone deaf in a historical context.
But their while point was that they were super-smarties who made shit through communion with God directly, and the devices they made weren’t to be used
They’re an ancient Jewish group yes, but otherwise nothing at all like Hitler’s cabal bullshit and way closer to something like an ancient “secret cult”, made Jewish because it’s a series about the Nazis and them only winning due to Jewish technology (and also losing eventually because of it) is part of the catharsis of the whole thing
I read them a lot more like a group of ancient nerds. Which describes Jewish people pretty well if the friends ive had in the faith are anything to go by
I guess I kinda get your point but it feels so explicitly cathartic to make what IRL we credit to Nazis usually (in media their magic is usually them diving sadistically into what others won’t, for example) that I think it’s the opposite of tone deaf
How exactly does he think…
checks list
…a whole shitload of things exist? Everything from microwave ovens, to nasa space rockets, to jet engines? Shit! If the nazis weren’t so god damned evil they would have been pretty awesome…but they aren’t. You know, because of the whole evil facist racists thing.
But damn they knew how to invent stuff, and have stylish military uniforms while doing so.
If they think that, they may have a problem with what they consider glorified. They may want to avoid recognizing parallels that are far more personal to them.
If they didn’t have at least a few competent nazis, they wouldn’t have been such a threat; WW2 would be over in a month. I’m sure there were even competent Talibans and North Koreans.
Maybe it’s a skill issue. They never could make it past level one so the nazis are programmed to be too good!
I take your point but I wouldn’t class nuns as the ideal opposing example to Nazis, either.
EDIT: And yes, I know I’m doing the thing.
Putting the “God” in Godwin’s law