It seems like most people have forgotten about this age-old classic:
In fact we’d be absolutely delighted to filter all the oligarch class pedos out of politics. And yes, all means all. From all corners. Businessmen, politicians, faith leaders. All of them.
Hilarious that they think they “got us” with someone who was president a quarter century ago.
Democrats voted unanimously to release the files, Republicans voted to hide them. Explain that, MAGA.
Actually, the dems weren’t unanimous. I think there were two who voted present.
voted present? Does that mean abstained?
Yes.
Guess I’ll have to take all the Clinton flags off my f850 dually, take all the Clinton signs outta of my yard, and quit wearing my made in China Clinton hat. Hell, I might have to stop letting Bill fuck my wife.
What about your bill clinton nfts and his golden shoes and the beans that he sold from the oval office. Checkmate leftie
Don’t forget your Clinton bibles!
If you do that I’ll have to close my store that sells nothing but Clinton related trinkets and such.
Nobody under 47 years old has even had a chance to vote for Bill. Nobody gives a shit about that guy.
He’s the best option for the joke - Obama and Biden are more recent, but don’t have a reputation for philandering, let alone for being sexual predators.
What am I supposed to do about my Bill tattoo?
At least let me keep my Bill wifu pillow.
Sadly, Bill doesn’t just want to fuck your wife…
The left doesn’t worship their politicians as the second coming of Jesus Christ son of God.
And even if we did, Bill fucking Clinton isn’t on the left
And even if he WAS- Bill Clinton isn’t a fucking pedophile. An adulterer, a sleazy dude? Sure. But you’re not going to convince me that Bill Clinton is into children without some solid evidence.
i wouldn’t be surprised if he was also on the list.
I mean, we already have “the list”- associates who travelled on his plane. Bill’s on it. Bill Gates, too. Plenty of people I’m not convinced are kid fuckers are on that list, but that’s been public information for years.
Oh yes they do. Lenin, Mao Zedong and (to a much lesser extent) AOC and Bernie.
Rose tinted glasses fit on the heads of everyone.
The difference between worship and respect is that one is earned and the other is not.
If you worship someone you follow them unconditionally no matter what they do. They can openly brag about molesting women, they can get convicted felonies in 34 counts, they can make life hell for a large part of the population, and someone who worships that person will just lap it all up and follow right along.
Contrary to that, respect can be lost quite quickly, as seen with a lot of people who were very popular with left-wingers. 10 years ago most leftwingers loved Musk. How many left-wingers do you see that still worship Musk and follow his every mood?
Same holds true with every other person on the left who failed. They are gone in an instant.
The former communist bloc took a lot longer than an instant. Their leaders were worshiped by some of the population.
North Korea is far left and their leader and his family are almost deities.
North Korea is far left
I mean, if you make a line where dictatorship is on the far left and democracy is on the far right, then yeah, NK is “far left”. But on a more real note, there’s very little difference between the Kim dynasty and absolutist monarchies, or the dictatorships of Francisco Franco (Spain) and Antonio Salazar (Portugal), I doubt any of those were ever considered “political left” in any manner.
North Korea is a totalitarian dictatorship, but it is also left wing.
It has public ownership, it is anti capitalist. Production and the entire economy is centrally controlled and it was founded as a Marxist state with the backing of the soviet union.
You are among the many here who are confusing authoritarianism/liberalism with left/right ideologies. Funny how you mentioned Spain and Portugal but avoided Italy.
Economy and politics are intrinsically tied to one another, no matter how much some economy masters try to say otherwise. Regulations, tariffs and taxes happen because of political pressure and they all have a very direct and measurable effect on the economy. Democracies may not directly control economies like dictatorships can, but they can and do heavily influence it to work one way or another, via tax or tax breaks, easier or harder credit, etc. Culture also plays an important role, even if the majority of economy academics downplay or ignore it, just like they downplay or ignore the importance of nature, but that’s a different discussion.
it was founded as a Marxist state
Alright, can you tell me what are some of the marxist teachings that NK applies to how it runs the state and the economy? Because “being founded as” and “actually run as” are not the same. I mean, it’s official name is “Democratic People’s Republic of Korea”. It’s obviously not democratic and barely qualifies as a republic
confusing authoritarianism/liberalism with left/right ideologies
I’m not. Left wing ideology usually leans towards “the govt and economy should work for the good of the people”. Communism, which is as “far left” as it typically goes, assumes that the people collectively own all the means of production and government becomes unnecessary. Which leads to the next point
It has public ownership
NK doesn’t have “public” ownership, as in, the people cannot say that they collectively own anything, and literally have no say in how anything works, everything belongs to and is run according to the will of the state (or, more accurately, the current leader). Like I said before, not different from an absolutist monarchy. Unless you can argue that the majority of Kim’s policies are all for the good of the NK people, he cannot be considered “left”.
Funny how you mentioned Spain and Portugal but avoided Italy.
What, you gonna tell me that Mussolini was a far left politician?
NK doesn’t have “public” ownership, as in, the people cannot say that they collectively own anything.
Proof by contradiction. NK doesn’t have private ownership of companies therefore anything that exists is “public”. Definitely not right wing capitalism.
you gonna tell me that Mussolini was a far left politician?
Yes. Mussolini initially had socialist roots. Only later did he move in the authoritarian axis towards nationalism and fascism.
Uff… again someone who thinks that politics are binary and left is left and right is right. Sure, a leader cult dictator is exactly the same as a liberal social democracy. All the same, correct?
The North Korean political system is close to identical to Nazi Germany. Another “far left” country then, correct?
We all know that liberty, freedom of personal expression and equality are the main ideals of North Korea, correct?
This is the exact opposite of what I am saying.
The left/right spectrum is being conflated with the authoritarian/libertarian spectrum.
I’ve given many examples to counter the claim that “the left” won’t worship a leader.
I expected that anyone who is actually following the discussion would understand that when we are talking about left and right we are talking about left and right in the year 2025 and not in the year 1958, and that we are talking about left and right in the west and not left and right in China or in countries that haven’t existed in 30+ years.
Different years and countries were provided as examples of people on the left worshiping politicians.
What reason is there to believe that “The Left in the US in 2025” would be any different to what happened in other countries in other years?
Man, these guys really just hated being associated with Stalin and Mao so much that they’re not picking up what you’re putting down. You’re correct, left wing movements can absolutely be led by authoritarians with a cult of personality. That said, I think most leftists view authoritarianism as something so abhorrent that they don’t associate those leaders with actual leftist policies.
Thanks for the understanding. Online discussion is usually so polarised that I suspect most people are assuming I’m attacking the left or defending the right.
I’m only highlighting lazy thinking.
Wish I could still be this delusional. Ignorance really is bliss.
Nope. You can respect someone without worshiping them.
I’m an anarchist so I wouldn’t even go so far as to say I respect Mao.
Do I think Bernie and AOC are better than most politicians? Of course. If I found out they were sexual predators I’d still say throw them in jail.
Lenin’s body is literally preserved in a glass case for public viewing. That absolutely crosses the line into worshipping for me. That ain’t normal.
Sure, but was it the people who demanded that happen or was it the so-called communist government? By the time the U.S.S.R went away it had become sort of a landmark, so I can see why they didn’t get rid of it at that point.
People in North Korea are required to have pictures of pictures of the Un’s on penalty of death. How they actually feel about him is anyone’s guess. Despite what they say he’s no leftist though at any rate.
Maybe not you personally.
I’m only highlighting that (some) people on the left are just as capable of blind worship as those on the right.
The subject is worship, or maybe even “deify”, so no we fucking don’t.
I guarantee if Bernie/AOC did 1% of the things Trump does, their support would evaporate. I know I personally would support their primary challengers…
AOC has 9 million followers. That’s quite a lot of worshipping.
But, I’m not trying to compare to Trump, either in popularity or actions. I’m just saying the left does not have immunity against the cult of personality. The worshipping that has occurred on the right in the US has also occurred on the left in other countries.
Your definition of worship is weirdly loose. Like bizarrely loose. Following someone on Twitter, which is a weird thing to do in itself because why would you be on a Nazi website which says a lot about her I think, doesn’t mean you worship them. Do I worship windy.com because I’m subscribed to their weather app? Your neighbor says hi to you where they worshiping you? Oh I turned on the TV I was worshiping anything I’m watching. What just a completely ludicrous definition.
The context here is conservatives who worship Donald Trump to the point where they build golden Idols for him. And you’re comparing getting alerts when someone post a message as the same thing. Wow
It’s almost like… they’ve taken a different definition of the word to fit a narrative! But that can’t be right, they’re clearly discussing this in good faith!
My definition of worship is calibrated to Trump. It is liking someone for their personality, not their policies or actions.
AOC is worshiped. Bernie less so. Obama a lot more so. However you define Trump worship, you can find (less extreme) parallels on the left.
This is not criticism. The whole job of a politicians is to be worshiped, so that you are given the power to enact your policies.
It’s clearly not calibrated Trump. Because I’ve never seen anyone make a golden idol to Bernie Sanders. Obama hats and flags aren’t flying all over my neighborhood. Nobody bases their entire persona around Cortez. So if you’re calibrated to Trump your comparison is ridiculous.
From 0 to Trump, this is about a 3.
I’m not claiming the left’s worshiping is equivalent to OMGTrumpMAGA, but it undeniably exists.
If AOC and Bernie were on the list, Dems would still say lock them up. Dems don’t care who is on the list, they want justice for it.
Now Dems in Congress? That’s a different story. MAGA wants everyone to go down, but would happy glare over every single time Trump is mentioned. And you know that.
Bernie’s not even a democrat. He ran as one because he needed a backing. Much like Trump isn’t a Republican, they just ate his shit up. He’s said the economy does better under Democrats, and ran for President under the Reform Party out of California before he realized the Republicans would support him more. The reform party was where Buchanan got all the KKK / white nationalist support back in the 90’s.
A quote from Trump from the time that was telling. “It’s very possible that I could be the first presidential candidate to run and make money on it.”
If AOC and Bernie were on the list, Dems would still say lock them up.
I agree.
Now Dems in Congress?
No-one is worshiping them, but they seem happy to follow Trumps lead.
Tankies. For the first two you’re thinking of tankies. They’re not leftists, they’re commie-boos who simp for regimes they were lucky enough not to live through just because they’re anti-US and have the same oppression kink as the right-wing trolls.
Tankies are definitely authoritarian loving, but I would still put them on the left wing more than the right wing.
Lenin, Mao Zedong
No one in “the left” supports far right authorizations…
The confusion may be you’re not aware far right authoritarians lie constantly, especially about what they support and why they support it
You might be confusing Lenin with Stalin.
Stalin was the authoritarian, Lenin was more of a leftist who aimed to empower the working class and had a relatively more democratic and pragmatic point of view compared to Stalin. Lenin actually warned people about Stalin and advocated that he be removed from power.
Not that I don’t have major issues with Lenin’s approach as well, but it was far better than Stalin and I believe he meant well at least.
Lenin complained in his letters that[29] his bureaucratic “apparatus has already become gigantic — in some places excessively so — and under such conditions a “personal dictatorship” is entirely unrealizable and attempts to realize it would only be harmful.”[31] Loginov explains that Lenin attempted to compensate this “lack of real power” with either with “abundance of decrees” or “simply with strong words.”[29]
The Bolsheviks also used terror as a means to dissuade unrest. On August 20, 1918 Lenin wrote to Nikolai Semashko, ‘I congratulate you on your energetic suppression of the kulaks and White Guards in the district. We must strike while the iron’s hot and not lose a minute, organize the poor of the district, confiscate all the grain and all the property of the rebellious kulaks, hang the kulak ringleaders, mobilize and arm the poor under reliable leaders out of our own unit, arrest hostages from among the wealthy and hold them.’[32]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror
Lenin wanted to be an authortarian and publicly complained his followers weren’t mobbing up to kill more people he politically disagreed with…
So yeah, I stand by my comment.
Lenin intentionally set the stage for Stalin, but would have done worse if he had the following.
Interesting I’ll look more into that. Admittedly I don’t have a super deep understanding of all the intricacies of that era and must have got some bad information.
No worries.
It was over a century ago and pretty much the only people who talk about him still are his worshippers.
But as a general rule of thumb:
Anyone that says they’re a socialist/communist while living in a palace and ordering their followers to mob up and kill people for disagreeing with their leader…
They’re really a far right authoritarian
I’m glad you’re out here correcting people. I’m definitely a layman, but as I see it the entire concept of the Vanguard is immediately antithetical to communism, so I think Leninism is at best a bastardization of Marxist communism. Again, at least as far as my very uneducated opinion goes based on my understanding
The left is perfectly capable of supporting Authoritarianism.
Authoritarianism can be both left and right.
Here, we see the “enlightened centrist” in his habitat of false equivalence…
Your jokey comment is highlighting the misconception.
Authoritarianism <-> liberalismIs a different axis to
Left <-> RightI know the chart you’re referring to, but we’re speaking in the context of US politics here. The wave function has collapsed to “right” = authoritarian and “left” = liberal. So, your original assertion presents the false equivalence that has allowed us to get to this current state.
The wave function has collapsed on the right to authoritarian but on the left people can still be either liberal or authoritarian.
Union leaders are left wing and are worshiped as authoritarians.
Not all leftists are the same, mate. For example, anarchists would love to kill the Bolsheviks. Bolsheviks would just love to kill everyone. Look at the history of Spanish Republicans during the Spanish Civil War, then tell me if they did not even shoot at each other at any point.
Bolsheviks would just love to kill everyone.
Oh, and did they. Bolsheviks who spoke out about the abuses of the Bolsheviks, Socialist Revolutionaries (ya know, actual left wing communists), Anarchists (every stripe), Soviet delegates, workers who went on strike, the Kronstadt sailors (Heros of the Revolution), peasants who fought expropriations, you looked at me funny…
The list is almost endless.
Not all leftists are the same, mate.
Exactly my point. Yet some here are claiming that no-one on the left will ever worship an authoritarian figure.
I’m showing that some on the left already have.
Context makes it clear we’re talking about liberals in the US today.
Your point is pointlessly pedantic.
To claim that the US left will never worship a leader is baseless and false.
The Roosevelts are widely applauded by the US left, but they don’t really worship them, and many are ready to admit they are flawed. Teddy was an imperialist despite being progressive for the time. FDR was an improvement but the Japanese internment camp was a stain in his legacy.
The communists would be more into cult of personality, but most American left are not communists and rightfully reject them.
So, do you accept or reject the statement that the American left would never worship a politician?
I previously voted republican and was raised in the fox news soup. Its cult worship behavior that forces them to worship their leader. Its a big part of why it’s hard to move away from voting republican, they are all afraid of being cut out of the in group for disagreeing. None of that shit exists on the left, which is why they always argue about the basics.
Totally agree with the first part. Cult worship can exist on the left but currently in the US it is highly localised (e.g. unions)
Are you actually this dumb? Or are you an LLM purposely trained to have a backwards training set?
I agree with what you say about the right.
I don’t see an argument why it can’t also exist on the left.
It’s literally one of the fundamental differences between like republican voters and likely democratic voters in the US. Democratic voters don’t change their opinions based on who is doing the thing, Republicans will always agree when their leaders do the thing and disagree when democrats do it.
Semantics about, “oh it could exist”, are not worth discussing except in bad faith.
Democratic voters don’t change their opinions based on who is doing the thing
Oh, Democrats still do support hypocrisy. Just to a lesser extent.
E.g. Democratic voters are against insider trading, except when Nancy Pelosi does it. (For balance, insider knowledge about tariffs was 10x more profitable)
The current worshiped charismatic dictator is on the right, but there is absolutely no reason they couldn’t also emerge from the left with similar support.
E.g. Biden created the Patriot Act and it doesn’t get more authoritarian than that.
I’m not supporting “The Right” I’m saying what happened could equally happen on the left.
LOL, no one in the US worships Lenin or Mao Zedong.
The closest the left comes is with Bernie and that’s only on the internet.
LOL, no one in the US worships Lenin or Mao Zedong
People on the left have worshiped such people. Why should being a US citizen make that impossible.
The closest the left comes is with Bernie and that’s only on the internet.
Which is why I gave the example. Instead of a liberal Bernie, imagine an authoritarian Bernie with policies that captured some of the authoritarian loving MAGA crowd.
Lenin
The guy who wrote:
“Leftwing communism, an infantile disorder.”?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/"Left-Wing"_Communism%3A_An_Infantile_Disorder?
Yes, that guy. There he is critiquing people even further left than he was. What point are you trying to make exactly?
This is some premium grade high quality delusion. Impressive stuff big dawg.
Human nature dude. Just because the right easily attracts brainless sheep, that doesn’t mean the left can’t.
At least the left’s brainless ship don’t worship politicians as the second coming of Jesus Christ son of god.
They do, but usually the leftist cult leader gets stormed by SWAT before he (very rarely a she) gets the chance to become president.
Another fine hit of delusion. Weapons grade stuff big dawg
Oh yes they do. Lenin, Mao Zedong and (to a much lesser extent) AOC and Bernie.
Just because the right easily attracts brainless sheep, that doesn’t mean the left can’t.
Some can, yes. Some subset of any large enough population can reasonably be assumed to behave irrationally. Similarly, some authoritarian might somehow start following a left winger.
Worship and submission to authority is, however, inherent to the supporting belief structure of the right. It’s how fascism works. The right, purely and simply, prefers to submit to authority. It’s why the evangelical, Orthodox, and other strict religious sects are always right leaning. They revel in the simplicity of it. They crave it and fantasize about it. They cherish the pain of those who have been blamed for their problems (because a scapegoat is much easier than thinking about it). They will keep it up until (and sometimes even through) the moment it eats their face. They’ll publicly deep throat that boot and beg daddy for the other one in gratitude for it also stomping on some scapegoat.
Worship and submission to authority is, however, inherent to the supporting belief structure of the right.
A lazy assumption. Take a look at union leaders.
It’s why the evangelical, Orthodox, and other strict religious sects are always right leaning.
Hippy flower power Buddhists are considered left leaning. You can’t tie religious belief to right/left either.
They cherish the pain of those who have been blamed for their problems (because a scapegoat is much easier than thinking about it).
Yes, this is the authoritarian/nationalism part. Not the left/right or secular/religious part.
The right considers Republican pedophiles good pedophiles, while the left considers all pedophiles vile. Enough of the double standards bullshit for the rich at the expense of children’s lives.
It’s not left though. It’s right and righter.
The cult has always assumed that everyone’s as bad as they are. That’s why they do the things that they do.
Any real leftist would say put the both in jail.
Well, investigate both. And if they’re guilty (which seems likely for both) throw both in jail!
Though to be fair, Dump himself should go to jail even without any Epstein revelations, he’s done plenty else too
Like try to take congress by force? Last time we did that it was a war crime. (Canadian)
Y’all are welcome to come burn down the white house again any time.
If you try again, I won’t be there to stop you because I’m not there. (Estonian)
Yeah, we (at least I) don’t prop up shitty people to save face, just because they’re on “my team” and I can’t admit I messed up–like basically every MAGA applogist.
I feel this encompasses my political universe.
Trumpists: The Clintons are oligarch crooks! Arrest them!
Me: Nods eagerly.
Grads: The US is an imperialist menace! Shows horrific CIA ops.
Me: Mmm hm. Seems like us, yyep.
I’m a local ML enthusiast/tinker too, so:
AI Haters: Sam Altman is a tech bro con artist! ChatGPT is evil and melting our brains!
Me: Yep. Nods. Massive understatement, you have no idea.
Yet I feel binned as a Neolib, US Apologizer and AI Bro. Which I am not.
You have grasped at the very least the most basic understanding of the concept of Nuance, that’s how you’re able to reason.
Those fucks don’t have any critical thinking skills.
And scientific skepticism of one’s ‘tribe’.
“Trump does no wrong; I trust him no matter what.” “None of these communist government incidents are real, or matter.” “All AI is offensive (or, the contrary, you’re a luddite for not believing in AGI).”
It’s frustrating how absolute loyalty is such a cultural norm now, anything less is error. I even see it with some young folks really clinging to their favorite streamers.
…I think that clouds a lot of judgement even if people are good critical thinkers. In fact, I think I read some study on how critical thinking tests nosedive when the subject is one’s own beliefs, and spike for the opposition.
It’s frustrating how absolute loyalty is such a cultural norm now
Not sure if it was ever any different. Listen to some interviews from the 50s or read some newspapers from the late 1800s. Propaganda has never been any different than today. Tribalism was the same. It’s been pretty much always the case that the majority of the population thought in absolutes.
The problem is you need to have a certain amount of intelligence, education, open-mindedness and humility to accept that things aren’t black and white and that no side has all the answers and all the truth. It’s much easier to just take one side completely and believe that the other side are pure daemons.
You see the thing is that you don’t see this as a sport, a lot of other people treat it as such.
I’m with you.
They understand that they’re being fucked over by those in power, but are completely blind to who’s doing it the worst and worship them instead.
See, you say this, but (with all due respect, as I get the perspective), you might vehemently disagree with me asserting that “boycotting AI is playing right into tech bro’s hands.”
So yes I agree with the irony, but I also feel like nuance and sub-arguments (from my perspective) get drowned out, too. Not every single Democrat politician is an oligarch, the US has done some good abroad, and using ML as a FOSS tool you own and host is not necessarily bad.
Oh no, not the other right wing dude who ran the country one time. Fuck
Their angle is not “haha your guy will lose!” but had already shifted to "well your guy does it too so it’s ok you can’t accuse us of anything otherwise you’re a dirty hypocrite "
Which i always hate because he’s not “my guy”. He’s a politician that I voted for based on their policies. This isn’t a sports game.
Joining a political “team” just forces you to accept the shit they get up to.
I remember this with Elon Musk’s Nazi salute back in January. Even if the images of other politicians “doing it” hadn’t been taken grossly out of context, Musk still did it.
Most of those are photos of a wave, which is what gets me. They say “Elon had a photo out of context just like these people!”
And it’s like “No…it’s a video with the context very much kept and there are no illusions”
Obviously, we don’t really care about Bill Clinton, but I would like to bring up someone a lot of us will care about, and should still treat the same way.
Marvin Minsky was a pioneer in the AI field. He also had ties to Epstein. Now, you may not care about Minsky or AI (though I’ll point out that the research field and what capitalism is doing with that research are very different things). But you might care about Richard Stallman, and he comes into this, too:
The controversy swirling around him now stems from a series of emails from a CSAIL group email list–made public by Selam Jie Gano–in which Stallman said that a 17-year-old girl who allegedly was instructed by Epstein to have sex with AI pioneer Marvin Minsky likely seemed “entirely willing” to engage in the illegal act. He also argued it is unfair to call such an incident “sexual assault”.
Stallman dropped out as president of the Free Software Foundation because of this.
Minsky himself died in 2016, but as far as I’m concerned, Stallman got exactly what he deserved. There’s no evidence he was directly involved as far as I’m aware, but those are not acceptable comments to make, and he shows some deep misunderstandings of consent here.
Even Stephen Hawking visiting Epstein island shouldn’t stop the list being released.
Why “even Stephan Hawking” lol
For me, he was a surprising Epstein island visitor.
Too be fair he’s about the same hight as those kids (obviously this is sarcasm, fuck all of them)
i literally don’t give a shit about either of them. if stallman diddles kids, he can go eat his foot fungus in jail with the rest of em. and the AI guy too.
“Drop your weapons! Or I kill the man.”
“…Well, kill him, he’s not our man.”
