- cross-posted to:
- mensliberation@lemmy.ca
- cross-posted to:
- mensliberation@lemmy.ca
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“Men are victims of the patriarchy too” is an incredibly powerful message that I wish more men understood.
“You’re gay if you don’t like football”, “you’re wasting your life if you don’t want to get married and have kids”, “you’ll never find a husband if you don’t wear makeup”, “you’re not a real man if you cry”. The patriarchy is sexist to everyone, and that’s why everyone should give a shit.
When I found out the patriarchy wasn’t about horses, I lost interest.
It’s like when you talk to a small business owner. They’ll talk about how the banks and big companies screw them left and right, but they’ll also tell you that they think they’ll end up Bill Gates. Same delusion
Heads up, the message you’re replying to was a joke from the Barbie movie.
The amount of people who didn’t understand the whole thing about ken in that movie was scary.
No shit! I wanted to cry for him. I GOT him.
And my fiancé did weep a little during “the speech”.
That movie hit hard. I’d love a man version of that speech, but it would have been wildly out-of-place, and I wouldn’t have wanted America Ferrera’s rant to have been watered down by a “both sides” thing.
“What are your thoughts on the “Barbie” movie?”, would be a great dating site question for any of us. Weed out the assholes in a hurry.
I’d love a man version of that speech, but it would have been wildly out-of-place
I felt it applied to men in a lot of ways still. Sure, a lot of details, I had to adjust in my head, but I didn’t feel like I need a man version to get it. There were some woman specific things in there and a whole lot of human things.
Thank you.
I find it interesting that, under a post on how men and, even more often, women, ignore men’s mental health, you feel the need to specify that it’s the men that lack understanding of the problem.
In conversations I’ve had around this I’ve found that women get this immediately, even if they hadn’t considered it before. But men tend to be very resistant to the idea.
Keep in mind, just because someone “gets it” that guys can need emotional support, it doesn’t mean they have deprogrammed themselves from the patriarchy.
In the very story in the post, the wife said she repeatedly brought it up to others and they (including women) still didn’t ACTUALLY provide support to her husband.
If anything, “resisting the idea” sounds an awful lot like “not wanting to set yourself up for disappointment”.
Yup, the alarm bells aren’t ringing, we learned to turn them off.
I hate this way of putting it, especially because it puts the blame on a single gender. It’s not JUST men who shoehorn people into gender roles, we all do it.
It’s off putting to me and I tend to dismiss the entire thing because it basically says that men being bad also hurts men. Had it said that men also are victims of gender roles I would immediately agree, and I can’t imagine that I’m the only one who feels this way.
That’s why it’s so important to specify that men are victims of patriarchy, not victims of men. Everyone, regardless of gender, has an environmental tendency to reinforce the societal structure that we label “Patriarchy”, as you say (and I/many agree), but there’s far more to it than the idea of “men first women second”. The idea behind the phrase is not “everyone vs. men” but rather “everyone vs. harmful but deeply engrained social construct”.
Then why use the label “Patriarchy”? It has a very specific meaning that I don’t feel applies to many western societies and definitely not to the sociatal structure and norms that we happen to live in, regardless of who is in charge. I think we agree on everything but the term.
Because it still puts men on top in most ways, even while it hurts them too.
And it definitely applies to all western societies.
You can see it in this very story. “Men are strong, they don’t need help. Women are weak and emotional, that’s why they need support.” Yeah, it’s devastating for men in this situation, but it’s the same logic which makes people say men are natural leaders or whatever.
Don’t forget that leadership is not a cakewalk either; it comes with responsibility and sacrifice. It is a burden as are most ‘advantages’ that men ‘enjoy’.
In a just world it would be, but the consequence of being labelled and perceived as a “natural leader” is that one can get away with shirking their responsibility, avoiding sacrifice, and abusing their position without much repercussion.
That’s fair enough. I guess it depends how you view leadership.
The Patriarchs in question does not refer to all men. It specifically calls out the culture of the "elders"and those who have had ample opportunity to become established influences through the system. Those who subscribe to old fashioned beliefs and those at the top of the power structures that benefit from their compliance from younger, poorer generations. Emotionally distant men and limiting variability within the group makes the entire demographic more easily exploitable. A lot of roles in the family and society exist for men outside the title of “patriarch” but patriarchs specifically use their role to self legitimize their power over other people and make everyone in some way subservient.
It’s kind of a shorthand for “old fashioned” conservative systems of organization that prime men to be “leaders in embryo”. The gendered component is still valid because it is still a dominant model that is marbled with minor subversions of it. Women and non-standard men may have changed their place in the family but even when they reach the top they have to make themselves non-threatening to the cohort of established powers and play by their rules to succeed.
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because those gender roles are largely decided by men
As a father who is very involved in my kids’ life, I feel this frequently. At the start of each school year I submit my contact info as the primary contact info and yet sometimes emails will circulate among the class moms anyway. Or I’ll get a text from another kid’s mom asking for my wife’s number so they can plan something.
When we started making friends with parents of my kid, all the moms in the group created a chat group which they still use to this day. The dads didn’t make one because that’s just not a thing you do, and I wasn’t invited to the moms group, even though I knew them at least as well as she did, and I am the extrovert and my wife is the introvert. So I frequently feel lonely and isolated (I also WFH) and my wife is socially overwhelmed.
Yes I could just buck the system and try to get the dads to have a group, or have my wife add me into the moms group, or similar things in other areas of life. But that’s the point: any time I do that I’ll be going against the grain.
I have struggled so hard with this. My child’s school cannot seem to understand that I, the father, am the one who primarily takes care of my daughter. My wife and I have started to flat out refuse to give the school my wife’s contact info, even as an “emergency contact”, just to make them communicate with me. I did manage to make a bunch of faculty at her old school mad when I asked, publicly, why they felt the need to discriminate against me when trying to contact patents, and this had the unintended effect of making a bunch of other fathers in the group pop up and ask the same question. Now my daughter is old enough that she, herself, will call them out on it. Having a ten year old lose her shit and tell the teacher that she needs to contact the right parent is really funny, almost as funny as when they insisted on contacting my wife instead of me, again, to complain that my kid had yelled at them for not contacting me.
I deal with this also except my ex abandoned us to move states away. She will still get notifications via email or text that she forwarded to me because they have her information on file. They have her information because I was forced to provide divorce paperwork showing I had custody of the kids to enroll them in school. Wonder how many moms get asked for paperwork proving custody when they try enrolling their kids in school. It’s reduced over the last three years but the first couple were ridiculous. Finally have a mom of one kid and dad of another kid that recognize I’m a parent to my children. Everything is stupid though. Every doctors apt, school visit, dentist apt, hell even trips to the store. Some BS content like “where’s mom” or “oh you’re filling in today”. I’m so sick of it. I cope by telling myself that at least it would be worse if the love of my life died horrifically instead of going bananas and abandoning us and I had to deal with this shit. At some point I’m worried I’ll snap at people but I never want to say anything negative about her around the kids.
I’m not even a parent and this shit pisses me off.
Very similar. With our work schedules I end up spending more time with the kids than Mom does. My commute is much shorter and I can work from home a day or so a week. I feel like there is this whole network I am freezed out of.
Agreed.
My husband has had virtually no emotional support from anyone, so much so that he doesn’t understand how to communicate any of his feelings.
“How do you feel?” “I don’t know” “Can I do something to help?” “I don’t know”
I definitely don’t ignore his mental health but his lack of communication drives me up the pole. Often I have to just walk away out of frustration. I wish I understood how to get through to him without it making me want to bash my own skull against the wall. I think a big part of it is that he doesn’t want to admit that he has any emotions at all
“How do you feel?” “I don’t know” “Can I do something to help?” “I don’t know”
Yeah. That’s real fun isn’t it? And I really don’t know. I’m luckier than most men, in that I have an understanding wife who doesn’t use my emotions against me.
Seems like you two chose each other well!
My husband is usually functional, but when things go wrong he crawls up inside himself and just doesn’t wanna come out. I deal with problems by facing them head-on, and he deals with them by pretending they don’t exist. Obviously that creates conflict (which then doesn’t help either of us. It’s extremely frustrating to know there is a problem but not know what that problem is)
He’s told me that he’ll go to therapy. I’m hoping that a third party will be able to help him unravel why he doesn’t know how he’s feeling, and how to communicate his needs
I am like that too. When I go over my limits, my tendency is to isolate myself.
I am better now, but I’ve been with a psychotherapist since 2020 and I am a lot better now at identifying my emotions and not isolate myself.
For me what worked was learning to identify my emotions. My first reaction to pretty much any negative emotion is anger and I don’t think that will change. However, I’ve learned to identify the emotion after the anger and then I speak it out. Sometimes, just a small statement to myself (" I acknowledge this emotion X") and sometimes, it leads to a long thinking about the situation that caused the emotion and how that made me feel.
So to help your other half, helping him identify the emotion after the anger would be the first step.
I concur, but after 3 years of me trying to help him identify what he’s feeling, a third party has to get involved. The problem is that I get frustrated and that doesn’t help anyone. He absolutely needs someone neutral to guide him. It can’t be me
I understand. And a therapist will have a multitude of tools to help him find the right one to start the journey.
I wish you the best and hope that your situation will get better soon.
Therapy and/or an ADHD diagnosis (not joking, one symptom of neuroatypical people is the inability to identify emotions in themselves (like me lol)).
I suspect autism with him. He’s an Engineer, so he has a lot of Braun power but I’ve had to teach him to greet me, say please and thank you, and introduce me to people I haven’t met. He literally left me in his friends doorway when we were dating. (It was a party and he opened the door, walked in and started hanging out with their 3year old while I stood there dumbfounded until I started introducing myself as his girlfriend. Yes, we broke up over it, but we figured it out and now we’re married)
Maybe this could help him? It’s from a peer counselor who deals a lot with these types of problems, usually with fairly nerdy guys, many of them on the spectrum.
I think it’s sadly one of those things that people don’t understand until it happens to them. They’ll leave other men to their private hells and when it’s their turn they wonder why everyone has abandoned them like they did other men so many times before.
private hells
“Hanging on in quiet desperation…”. Huh. That lyric always hit home, didn’t know why. LOL, I’m not even English!
We have all learned through experience to shut the fuck up. I’ve dated, a lot in the past 35-years of adulthood. Know what happens when a woman sees you cry? Dumped. Every. Damned. Time. And none of them ever expressed that it was a problem. But after enough experience, even my dumb ass can draw a cause -> effect line. And some asshole will try to be kind and say, “She wasn’t a good person anyway!” Whatever. I still got dumped, over and over again. STFU, both of us.
Hell, I’m getting married next week. Third time’s a charm! Seriously, no woman has ever loved me so deeply. No woman has ever treated me so finely. I have never felt so comfortable, and more importantly, secure with a woman. It’s all a bit hard to get my head around, honestly struggling to internalize it. But read on…
Last night I tried to tell her how much cracking stress I’m under this month.
- Thanksgiving week, I’m getting my young children (8 and 10), for the first time in 4 fucking years. I’m scared to fucking death.
- My company just did a re-org. A welcome change to be sure! But I got a new boss in 2-days, and while I love him to death, and many people clamored to join his team, he’s going to be challenging to sync with. It’s next door to starting a whole new job.
- I’m getting married on Black Friday.
“Oh! You are having second thoughts about marrying me?” (Her tone was “scared shitless”, not “antagonistic”.)
See what I mean guys? I should have just sucked it up. All I did was hurt her and gained nothing for my own mental health.
We gain nothing, and stand to lose everything, by showing weakness to our women. It’s not their fault and I’m not condemning them. They’re every bit the primates we are.
EDIT: She just came home from work and her first words were, “Are you still scared?” Damn what a woman. And how so very nice to be wrong this time.
Sounds like you finally found the right woman.
I knew he was the one when my husband (then boyfriend) cried in the theater when (spoiler alert) ET died. I wish more women had empathy for men’s unique struggles, but some of us do exist.
After his best friend moved away, my husband gradually settled into this dynamic where I was his only emotional support. Meanwhile I actively nurtured friendships with several women in my life. When he died, I had a network of people checking on me. I shudder to think how he would have fared if the situation were reversed.
Many friends and family asked me how they could help. I always replied that I wanted them to include my then-21-year-old son in their family plans occasionally, especially those who could provide a male role model. I asked male friends and relatives to check in on him occasionally and encourage him as he struggled through a deep depression to finish his degree. Only one person bothered. I am still angry about this.
We all need to be the change we want to see. Women need to be more aware and more accepting of men’s emotions. Men need to work harder at forming and maintaining deep friendships. Look around and notice men in your circle who are struggling. Ask yourself how you can reach out to them.
Society is doing a crap job at creating ways for men to get support. So stop waiting for that to happen and do it yourself.
It sounds like you have enough self knowledge to begin to connect with your emotions. I suggest you tune your soon-to-be wife into this process, it sounds like she will be understanding when you get on the same page. Best of luck!
LOL, check my edit.
Yeah, the 99% of us have far more in common with each other than with the 1%. It’s oligarchy through plutocracy, not patriarchy.
Ideals of masculinity aren’t instilled in children by the 1%, they are perpetuated by parents and peers at a personal level.
Calling it the patriarchy has very negative tone towards men, and basically blames men for the problem, In my experience, this issue isn’t created by men and saying it’s because of the patriarchy is just a form of victim-blaming. Even when trying to advocate for men feminism somehow manages to be sexist.
It’s true though. The patriarchy has perpetuated the idea that men are strong and stoic and women are weak and emotional, so it falls to men to be the leaders. The idea that men also need protection and understanding runs counter to the concept of patriarchy, hence why it hurts men as well as women.
I think most of us understand how things are. The problem is the one’s whose opinions matter don’t give a fuck about changing anything because they’re at the top of the hierarchy. They benefit from treating the rest of us like shit.
It’s kind of a worthless statement really.
The ones at the top of the hierarchy aren’t the ones instilling these toxic ideals of masculinity in to young men. Parents and peers are perpetuating this on a personal level.
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Media perpetuates these ideals but they didn’t originate with them. These ideals of masculinity have been around for hundreds of years before the modern media.
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You say yourself here, “the media influences gender norms… at least as much as”. Yeah, of course, it is a problem throughout all layers of society. Your earlier comment seemed to be saying that blame should be mostly with the 1%? I’m not sure what you are saying here.
Because if you don’t adhere to these ideals you won’t be successful in life. You won’t get anywhere in your career. Women aren’t going to date you. You’ll be bullied and beaten down at every turn. Until something changes at the top these parents and peers are doing them a favor.
I’ve rejected these ideals my whole life. I was bullied as a kid but once I got out of school I found my people and never looked back. Never had a problem with women, the ones I dated found my emotional openness attractive. I’m successful in my professional life, tech lead at a financial software company.
I understand that different places have different degrees of pressures for this kind of thing, but what you’re saying is a lie. You’ve been programmed by the system to believe it and it is probably making you miserable. And if you have kids, it’ll make them miserable too. It doesn’t have to be that way. I feel bad for you.
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Nah. It’s just an attempt to steer the conversation back to women’s issues. It’s just less on the nose than “…And that’s why you need feminismTM!”
I’m not quite sure what you’re saying here? You don’t think that the masculinity that gets taught to men is a problem for their mental health?
I might really misunderstand what patriarchy means in this context. But I’m using the definition “a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it”.
I don’t see how this is relevant to the “masculinity that gets taught to men”, as this idea is also perpetuated by women, so I don’t see how having a matriarchal or neutral society would fix this.
It seems to be more the result of the expectation that men need to be providers and protectors, which can be an expectation regardless of if the society is patriarchal or matriarchal or neither.
Sorry if I’m being ignorant. I’m just trying to understand better
To my mind the central mechanism for systemic control by the patriarchy is enforcement of gender roles. Men should be like this, women should be like that. Of course there will be ideas of masculinity in any society, patriarchal or not, but I think the aggressive enforcement of those roles and punishment for deviation from them is specifically an aspect of patriarchal systems.
On top of that, given the systematic exclusion of men from child rearing, re teaching elementary school, babysitting, or even parenting while male is all but criminalized in the Western world so nearly no men serve in those roles, I’m left to question who is responsible for “the masculinity that gets taught to men.”
I think unfortunately over the past 50 years the “masculinity that gets taught to men” comes from movies and TV shows.
I’m saying it has the same energy as one of those insufferable Christians popping their heads into every conversation at all and saying “And that’s why ya’ll need JesusTM.”
Someone starts blabbering about the “patriarchy” in a discussion about men’s issues, they’re not contributing to the discussion. They don’t genuinely care about the topic at hand. They’ve found an excuse to insert themselves into conversation.
Yep “well if men weren’t such assholes they wouldn’t hold the few good apples down like this”
I literally quoted from the Tumblr post about patriarchy. You sound way too online.
Thanks for articulating that. I’ve always felt that the title for a phenomenon that oppresses people based on their gender shouldn’t be named for one of them. It doesn’t help anyone.
Men understand it already. It’s the women who don’t.
I don’t find this to be true, in my experience. Most men I’ve discussed this with are very resistant to the idea.
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Men do understand it. We live through it every day. It’s the women who need to understand it. It’s the women who seem to think that men have great lives and everything is given to them. That’s not the case at all.
Men might understand that they are unhappy, but I don’t think most men blame that on the cultural ideals of masculity that are pushed on them their whole lives. If most men do understand that, then why do they struggle so much to change? The common messaging in men’s mental health is usually around telling men that it is ok to have feelings, ok to talk about them, ok to cry and show emotions. If men understand that they are being victimised by other men (and themselves) and the social pressures to conform, why is it so difficult to get those messages through to them?
And I mean, the fact that you feel the need throw blame on women here (who are also victimised by the same system) seems like you’re not actually blaming the patriarchy?
men understand that they are being victimised by other men (and themselves)
throw blame on women here (who are also victimised by the same system)
You seem to conflate “men” and “patriarchy”.
Yup, I was trying to think of a way to say this succinctly, but you’ve done it. It’s sad that the majority of the thinking here is “y’all are doing this to yourselves”. I think I’ve basically given up trying to argue this point with people already. Seems like a lost cause, and not something that will change in my lifetime.
ehhhh. often it comes out as “I’m unhappy because of women”. it takes a special kind of introspection to really understand that you’re participating in and probably reinforcing the system that you’re suffering from.
incels are not representative of anyone
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It’s all very much a class war that gets masqueraded as a sex/political war
There can be more than one thing.
Maybe it is just that I have had a long day, but please explain how the wealth devide is causing people to feel like they need to conform to toxic gender roles.
Rich people indoctrinate the poor masses
The one track mind of communists
Well if there were any force in history with such a well-established power to affect change besides wealth we might build a second track.
why? you know what the “patriarchy” actually is? like, what actually enacts the problematic things people say is caused by the patriarchy? it’s the capitalist class for the most part.
you can tell because non capitalist societies dont have one
Fundamentally? capitalist structures are nothing new, the only real difference is the justification to the selective ownership of capital, and that is more pervasive and more predictable than any patriarchal structures throughout history.
I have more in common as a CIS “white” male with any race of gay, trans, person than I do any rich white male
Most feminists don’t even acknowledge this. Or they say even if men are victims, they deserve it for participating in the patriarchy.
Wrong, this is something almost universally acknowledged in feminist circles.
As a staunch feminist whose friends are all feminists, I have never heard a single one say—or even imply—anything like that. I very much know how extremely painful it is to have your feelings ignored and invalidated, so garbage like that is a dealbreaker.
If you’re hearing this claim from people irl, they’re saying it because they’re shitty people… not because they call themselves “feminists”.
Whereas plenty of guys have. I’d like to consider myself a feminist, but in my experience, I’m not welcome to the label, since it seems that progressive women are less compassionate than “nonpolitical” ones when it comes to relating to the issues of men. It’s obviously not some issue with feminism, but we don’t get to have popular movements and also ignore their ills. The vast majority of educated feminists agree with you. The vast majority of people in the streets calling themselves feminist seem entirely in it for themselves, and it’s really tiresome when well-meaning feminists who aren’t just exercising their trauma, the people that men like these most-need to have honest conversations with, insist that men don’t know what happens to them.
Apparently, there are no misandrists, according to online discourse. Should I tell my memories they’re wrong, that I should have just been more open-minded as a young child when more than one teacher preached that men are evil and stupid, and deserve subjugation? Or maybe, just like how misogynists are good at covering it up around their friends, so are the handful of misandrists who do exist?
People always seem shocked when I’m offended by terms like “I hate men”.
Like it’s somehow wrong of me to be offended by blatant misandry because I should just “know what they mean”. I’m one of “the good ones, they don’t mean me when they say it”. Horseshit.
The blatant misandry that some people carry around like a badge of honor is kinda horrifying, if I’m being honest. It’s almost like they don’t even realize that what they’re doing and how they feel about billions of people is inherently wrong.
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Thanks for a great example of how men’s concerns are often ignored or downplayed.
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I think just having some empathy would really help you here. The point is not difficult to understand
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This article is about how everyone needs support, only the last comment on it even mentioned the language.
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The Venn diagram between people who go like “please don’t say ‘I hate men’, it hurts men too” and people who think that a 12 year old Palestinian kid deserved to die for not distancing themselves from Hamas enough before being drone striked is a solid circle.
Well no. I wouldn’t put it like that but I think that statement is sexist, but obviously don’t agree with the Palestinian kid one. So hello from outside the circle.
Of course the point is technically correct. Men are being hurt by the patriarchy in many diverse ways, in the same way that anti-Black racism hurts white people (for example, through loss of bargaining power in segregated workplaces), and transphobia hurts cis people (through vilifying all kinds of gender nonconforming expressions or even simply being a woman born with masculine looking physiology).
Not sure about the race example but yes exactly, thank you.
But articles like these are literally not written to help the men affected by it, they are written to police victims’ language and turn around the blame for sexism on women once again.
This is your framing from your own personal perspective. You were originally responding to someone who surely isn’t attempting to blame sexism on women. I’m sure you can see how a statement like “men are trash” is sexist. Just like feminists are correct to call out anyone saying “women are trash,” men are totally within their rights to call this out and discuss how sexism in society affects them too. This post is the perfect example, men need to be able to step outside of this context where they are treated like monsters (or rapists, as you said) or like their needs are less important. Things would be better for everyone if men had the emotional support offered to women. Even the bad ones might not be so bad if they felt less devalued and disposable.
I’m sorry if you’ve been traumatized and I totally see how having your words scrutinised like this is annoying as shit if you’re just looking to vent, but the whole point is that nobody should have to experience sexism. And that includes men. Treat others how you want to be treated and all that.
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Crazy how you just completely ignored what I said and propped up the most blatant strawman.
Keep it up.
Like only one conversation about gender discrimination is permitted to happen at one time, and any time on one is time taken away from the other. It’s not either men’s issues or women’s, it should be both.
The second poster’s story so clearly shows why a man’s partner being their only emotional support is devastating to both people in the relationship, yet this idea is still so insidiously pervasive in our society. No one wins.
I am mid thirties male and getting divorced. Making friends as an adult is so hard. Even going to things I like, doesn’t guarantee I’ll click with anyone there really.
especially if your taste is a little off the beaten path. I really like a ton of music that most would consider “weird” or “an acquired taste,” which means other fans tend to be condescending and douchey (I may be pretentious, but I try to draw the line at condescending). Add to that the fact that I live in a tiny town and that many of my other hobbies attract either edge-lords (i.e. TTRPGs) or bros (i.e. snowboarding and baseball), and it can feel like it’s not even worth trying to get to know people with shared interests.
Luckily I work in a job where I can have meaningful relationships with several of my coworkers even if we have very little in common beyond the work (and my extroverted wife and kids mean I get about all the interactions my introverted self can handle).
edit: Almost forgot to offer you some support! Keep trying OP, there are people worth knowing out there, and you may already know some of them. I’ve had really good luck getting in touch with some college friends and doing discord or zoom game nights where we chat and play online card games or TTRPG’s once a month.
Hey Thanks I appreciate it! I am in a really good headspace for the first time in months so things are going well :) I also work with a Therapist and Psychiatrist so I have support there as well
Have you gotten the advice to make friends with other divorced dads yet? 🥲/s
Jokes aside, I’m sorry for your circumstances. I’m in my 20s and it’s already hard to make friends now, I can’t imagine how it’ll be in the future. Ironically enough, I have met and made friends with quite a few 30-40 year old divorced dad’s through local ttRPG groups and FFXIV.
If it’s any encouragement, most of them say they have bounced back after the roughest period of their lives in getting divorced, and are happier now than pre-divorce. I can’t really say if what they’re saying is truth or a lie, but I wish you all the best, from one internet rando to another!
I am doing pretty good honestly, I am shy and have social anxiety so it has always been hard to make friends and trust people, but I am on good terms with my ex and I go to a Board Game group weekly so eventually ill find some friends there :) I also still talk to friends made starting in HS and College so I may move back to the PNW at some point.
I moved here to be by Family which is nice, but I kind of hate the south.
Need to bring back men only clubs.
That’s how most men bond. In a group.
still missing the point eh?
How did “grieve different” become don’t grieve at all? I’d be willing to bet that if men started grieving exactly like women, they still wouldn’t get the support they need.
Even worse, we’d probably get made fun of
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This sounds like a massive cry for help
I remember something similar to this when my mom died 15 years ago. Lots of aunt’s and friends reaching out to my sister to support her, traveling across the country to visit. I don’t think I ever even got a note.
But I do have the thing where I probably wouldn’t have cared either, if not for watching the support my sister got, it never would have occurred to me someone could do those things. And I know those people aren’t my actual friends, so I really had zero expectations from them. I think it was more the insult on top of injury that bothered me. “Not only do we not care, but we’re going to show you what we would be doing if we did care.”
I never took this as a boy/girl thing though. I never fit in in life, still to this day. Just sorta expected.
my condolences
This is pure envy and you can not do anything about it. Part of being a human.
Im an envious guy myself.
Dude got outright shit on and u call it envy…wow…just delusional.
Feeling entitled is the primary manifestation of envy. It is there for this exact purpose to orient yourself. So that you feel what you expect for equalization, so you dont feel “shit on”. Whether you want it or not, this is envy.
The only reason you have to deny that is because of the negative connotations you associate with envy. You are deluding yourself.
I thought men were supposed to suffer in silence then die early from stress and chemical numbing?
Edit: Funny this popped up in lemmy today https://lemmy.world/post/8222670
On the bright side it is 6 crappy years. Not the good ones of your 20s. Just means a few less rounds of bridge and less years in a home in Florida.
Personally, I’m going to die young even if it kills me. I’ve seen my ancestors’ attempts at old age. I’ll have none of it.
I just watched Netflix anime ‘Blue Eye Samurai.’ Highly recommended. There’s a scene where a princess is talking to the madam of a notorious bordello that specializes in the unusual. The madam goes on and on about how weak and fragile men are, how they need their egos massaged and need to feel supported.
After reading the post, I realized that this is a pretty common trope in fiction; sex workers talking about how most of their clients are only there because they need something that their jobs/families/communities deny them.
Just a thought.
It’s not just a thing in fiction either; I’ve seen plenty of threads and discussions over the years where real-life sex workers have essentially been saying the same thing. A lot of men are lonely.
That’s what’s amazing to me. Everyone knows about it, but it’s treated like a big secret.
Even in Japanese love hotels, I’ve heard it’s common for men to book someone and just…cuddle for a while. Fall asleep being held. I don’t have to live it to believe it.
I am seeing a lot of pushback–presumably from feminists–towards men that are expressing their experiences.
Guys it’s okay to cry.
It’s ok to have emotions.
It’s ok to not be ok.
…But that has not been my experience.
Should it be? Yes, absolutely. But is it now? No. And unfortunately, in my experience, the women that are saying such things–almost always self-identifying feminists–are also often then ones that are unaccepting of any display of emotion in men that aren’t coming from a place of strength. Men are e.g., expected to shrug off grief and depression and go back to work the day after a funeral. I shan’t be too specific for risk of doxxing myself, but I’ve noted that I’m expected to muscle through physical pain and mental exhaustion, while none of my partners–either current or former–will hold themselves to the same standard that I am held to by them.
I cynically think that many self-identifying feminists don’t want to abolish patriarchy, they just want to be able to benefit from it the same way that men do, without paying any of the costs for that benefit that men shoulder.
they just want to be able to benefit from it the same way that men do, without paying any of the costs for that benefit that men shoulder.
100% agree. and most, if not all, don’t realize the burdens men shoulder.
You do distinguish “self-identifying feminists” individuals who are “pushing back” from the ideology of feminism which is a worthwhile distinction. Because even with a boilerplate feminism 101 ideology around dismantling the patriarchy (and oppressive gender norms) recognizes it harms men as well, and advocates for a full appreciation and humanization of both men and women (and others) as complex sentient and emotional beings (see, equality). The first time I encountered anything about creating space for men to express emotions 15 years ago was through feminists. There’s an entire field of men’s health focused on mental health and dealing with masculinities in health contexts that were built on understandings of gender pioneered by feminist/critical academia. The people “pushing back” against such emotional space and empathy are advocating for things more aligned with misandry rather than feminism.
Yes, I agree; I don’t think that the people that have given me shit are actually living what they claim to believe. (…Which could also be hypocrisy.) I agree with the primary goals of feminism, if that primary goal is the dismantling of gendered power structures and gender norms so that people can be who they are rather than artificially–and negatively-constrained. OTOH, there are plenty of self-identified feminists that make broad generalizations about negative behavior, and apply that generalization to all men; I don’t think that’s helpful, unless your goal is to drive away potential allies such that you can feel justified in your rage.
Ah. So the no true Scotsmen argument.
The problem here is that the cases that I’m referring to are people saying that they’re feminist without believing in or following core tenets of feminism. If I said, for instance, that I was a Christian, and that I believed in sacrificing animals in the temple for receiving forgiveness from sins, you would quite rightly say that I was not a Christian at all, because I didn’t believe in or follow one of the primary tenets of Christianity (e.g., that Jesus dies for our sins, and that he fulfilled the law such that animal sacrifice was no longer necessary; I am not, for the record, Christian, nor do I believe in the idea of sin). Most feminists would argue that the primary tenet of feminism is tearing down gendered power structures; reinforcing gender stereotypes would therefore be not feminist.
Well no, I wasn’t making a judgement of whether or not those people were “true feminists”. I was making a judgement of their actions as being unaligned with the beliefs they claimed.
Humans do things that don’t align with their core values all the time. It’s called making a mistake or doing a bad thing. For example I’m staunchly anti-racism and try to check my actions. Doesn’t mean I never do racist things. Nor does it mean if I do a racist thing, suddenly I’m no longer anti-racist forever and all time. Who tf knows where the line is, but probably it’s around the point where you stop trying.
I’ve had similar experiences and when I’ve shared this previously all the response I got was “well date better people” as if I have a line of women waiting for their chance with me to select from.
I’ve lost a few relationships for exposing myself as a man with emotions. I don’t plan to make that mistake again. It sucks, but until society changes I can’t.
I have made quite different experiences, the people I felt safest to open were feminists.
Edit: I am sorry for your experience and didn’t wanted to downplay it. However, as there are many answers in a similar direction as yours, i wanted to give an alternative experience.
I guess it depends on if they’re actual feminists or misandrists parroting the words and rhetoric. I imagine a terf for example wouldn’t be great
Yes obviously. Actually, the people i was thinking about, were basically advocating for a fair society where every person can live ther own way. As women are currently structurally at disadvantage, this leads them to feminism.
No true Scotsman
I’m genuinely glad that you’ve had good experiences. It’s possible that my age–I’m pretty sure I’m 20+ years older than the average Lemmy user–has made a difference in the interactions I’ve had. It’s also possible that being neurodivergent has influenced my experiences. I truly don’t know; I’ve only got a single test subject, n=1.
fucking facts. This has been exactly my experience.
Ah, fuck it. We’re supposed to suffer in silence. We’re men. Man up, guys! Grit your teeth and bear it! (/s)
No one checks on me and that’s fine. I don’t really need people to check on me like I’m fragile. I fight my own battles; always have, always will. But for those who do need the more frequent check-ins, they should absolutely have them and should be able to ask for them without fear of ridicule or mockery.
The fact that, statistically speaking, no one cares about lonely folk is pretty discouraging, but you can’t force people to care. And even if you could, it wouldn’t be worthwhile or heartfelt. I sure as hell don’t want people to feel like they have to give a shit.
Stay strong, gents. It’s not weak to ask for help if you need it, even from internet strangers.
I remember when I was having a really rough time at work. My boss was pressuring me into leaving due to repeated underperformance, and I was working well into the night and all of my weekends, for a solid year and a half.
One day I came back from work fully dejected, feeling like a useless sack of dumb crap. My roommate asked me what was up and why we never hang out.
I told him that it was all just a bit too much. His reaction: “man up, or quit.” The automatic lack of sympathy stunned me a little, though he might have been right that I really should have just quit. (Full story: I didn’t, it did get better, and I even turned some of my detractors into friends, but it was a long road, and I definitely have an unhealthy relationship with work.)
Yesterday I had a comment from a woman friend along the line of “my daughter says you’re always serious but nice. You should work on that”. She didn’t think of asking me why I am always serious…
Wtf does that even mean?
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Honestly it would be the easiest solution lol
International Men’s Day – 19th of November.
https://internationalmensday.com/
Talk to each other. Don’t let someone go through their life alone.
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Actually, June is pride month.
Gotta love that even the very emotional “men have feelings and need support too” post ends with “treat them as wretched because they are wretched.” Absolutely fucking tonedeaf to bring that type of negativity and derogatory generalization about men to this context. Big “not all men, but…” energy
Now you’re reading it incorrectly: it is “treat [wretched people] as wretched because [wretched people] are wretched”, not "treat [men] as wretched because [men] are wretched "
It’s written incorrectly. “Only some men are sad. Don’t treat all men as though they’re sad.” How insightful and almost converse of the point, which is, “Gender doesn’t determine sensitivity or need.”
Quote me a single part of that third post that is explicitly gender neutral rather than explicitly about men, without adding your own interpretation in brackets.
don’t treat them as wretched just because they are men
Why would gender-neutral language be appropriate for this venue? It’s a discussion of how men are treated, and people who parrot “men are scum” will automatically say “yeah but what about the bad men? are we just supposed to feel bad for them?”. It’s written for an audience that is not specifically you.
Gender neutral language would not be appropriate for this venue, but it would be required for the “it’s about wretched people, not wretched men” interpretation in the comment I was replying to
Except that’s literally what I quoted.
I don’t read it that way. For me they argue that you should take a different view on wretched people and not blame their personality on their gender.
It’s less that the statement is false. But more that the statement is being made at all.
It’s like writing a post about how people are too quick to dismiss women as being overemotional, and someone commenting on it by saying
I’m not saying you have to be nice to or defend hysterical women, but don’t treat them as crazy just because they are women. Treat them as crazy because they are crazy.
It’s just bringing up a stereotype that acts as an excuse to deny men empathy, in the same way as mine does to dismiss women.
I don’t disagree with the general message of “Judge people for who they are”, but the way it’s written is tone death at best.
Maybe the circle they’re in is just pretty misandrist so it needs saying. But it just seems unnecessary to me.
I can totally understand your point. While trying to argue against it, i find myself agreeing even more to it.
Only one remark: As you say, the message is in any case not really appropriate for the preceding texts. However, i still think the statement can be interpreted in a constructive view and i try to give the benefit of doubt.
That’s right. Judge someone not by the length of their dick , but by the content of their character.
But why even bring up wretched people at all.
Because they want to feel victimized and are using dead children to do so.
This is a post talking about mother’s and father’s dead children and their imbalance of support, yet the third slide boils it down to “saying all men are disgusting pigs hurts my feelings.”
Disgusting.
And you get downvoted for pointing it out. Yet this problem will be blamed on men (“the patriarchy”) by Lemmy without any sense of irony or self-awareness.
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As a military veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan, this shit hits home. I’ve seen men break down and men who push it down until it is safe to let the feelings come out. Both are common, but for men you have to be able to keep the emotions in during a crisis situation. The men and women who are unable to do that pose risks of sudden suicide or uncontrollable behavior. Everyone has to let them out, that is extremely important.
A good friend of mine served in Afghanistan up until the very end. Never seemed to have any issues, was always cool and made the military seem like the most boring place on earth.
Flash forward to like a year ago and he’s got PTSD triggered by seeing his own kid and can’t sleep at night. No idea what happened, but yeah. It hits people.
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I think it also has a lot to do with the influence of patiarchy and toxic masculinity on the grieving person.
If you managed to push back against some of society’s expectations on men, know how to express more emotions than “angry” and “horny” and have shown vulnerability in the past, people will find it much easier to approach you.
On the other hand, if someone is working super hard to keep up their “manliness”, you may realize that they’re struggling, but you’ll have reservations about tearing down the crumbling facade they’re desparately trying to preserve.
I never feel pushed into these role of only being able to express angry and horny except on sites like reddit and by people who use sites like reddit. IRL my male friends are talk openly with each other. It’s only a problem when some “hot girl” or SJW type finds out about men having feelings and shames them for it. “The patriarchy” is not the problem. Blaming men for the problems men face is just a form of victim-blaming. It is exactly the kind of thing creating this problem to begin with.
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Friends?
My best friend of 15 years told me, when I had a rough patch, that he’s there for me just reach out but unless I initiate he would treat any interaction as just a normal day.
Throughout the rough patch I choose not to speak of it and just treated our hang outs as a chance to get away. He choose to support me in the only way he knew how and the only way he was comfortable with. I was not comfortable and didn’t know how to ask for more support. It’s about 7 years from then and my parents still don’t know, I just don’t know how to ask for and engage with emotional support. I am completely weirded out by the concept of talking about my emotions and somebody else caring, it gives me a high level of anxiety.
TLDR: small male friend groups with limited experience providing or receiving emotional support are unlikely to provide explicit emotional support and there’s a good chance if you’re a man who needs it you don’t know how to ask
It’s 100% natural to not want to bring up personal/emotional shit as a guy, it’s hardcoded into our DNA it seems.
I for one, don’t because when I do get a rare chance to hang with the guys I’m not going to Buzzkill it, and neither do they like it’s an unspoken man code. Our therapy is not talking it out like women do. Our therapy IS the hanging out/activities we do with our friends.
Man… You couldn’t be more wrong and all you’re doing is perpetuating the problem.
dude its because you guys were never taught how to express your emotion in a healthy and productive way. you probably don’t even know where to start to express grief, just “I don’t know” and “yeah I’m fine”.
I wasn’t. I’m working on it. How do I do that?
I would say start small, reach out to a trusted friend. and say that you would like to connect with people more genuinely. ask them about their days and take an actual interest in their wellness. ask them if they mind you sharing with them your feelings.
however, you might not have someone like that and making friends as adults is difficult so therapy is another method. make it clear that you’re there to learn to express your emotions in a healthy way. and let the therapist guide you through them.
this process is not the easiest, you would need to learn to be vulnerable. and unlearn behaviors and tactics that you’ve grown accustomed to. but there is strength in acknowledging weaknesses. and I wish you the best.
