I love the ticket systems in places like Berlin, Helsinki, Heidelberg, and Tampere. They don’t use turnstiles at all, just occasional onboard ticket checkers.
It’s so much faster for large groups of people to move through the stations so it keeps people moving instead of piling up at a ticket machine, even ones as fast as those in London.
You don’t need officers standing guard at turnstiles, just extra onboard sweeps to keep most people honest.
Even better is a whole free system like some cities are going to. LA is having a freeway widening project happening. If the money for that went to their public transit system, they could make it fare free for 20 years at the same price point as “just one more lane, bro” of freeway that will still be a parking lot anyway.
I know someone that grew up in LA. Their childhood home was demolished and turned into an extra lane for the freeway.
Same in Oslo. No turnstiles, you are just expected to have a valid ticket, (mainly digital) within the zone. And you can get checked at any time
Other than London, is there any European city with turnstiles? I’ve been traveling extensively and never noticed any.
Lisbon has them, and I believe so does Porto (the only two portuguese cities with subway)
Stockholms has automatic gates that open once your ticket gets scanned. So basically the same function?
Paris for the metro/rer.
The big lines/intercity often have no one checking at the entrance, but do fairly regular ticket checks once on board.
The Netherlands recently switched to turnstyles.
Stockholm at least has them.
What do they do if you are caught without a ticket?
You get IDd and a fine.
You can either pay it there or get it mailed, but then it’s like 20% more expensive
Another star for Norway. If I could get family issues disentangled, I’d be applying for jobs there in a heartbeat.
Most of Sweden does it that way too
I wish the UK would go to the German system. Particularly the 50EUR/m unlimited slow train travel, that’s goddamned amazing.
I’d consider getting rid of my car if we had that here.A better reason to make all these free is that they are largely funded by taxes in the first place.
71% for the MTA in NY.
https://cbcny.org/research/how-much-do-city-taxpayers-really-contribute-mta
Save money by getting rid of the ticket infrastructure and enforcement and encourage use.
The problem with this approach is that the NYC subway cars in Manhattan and the surrounding areas are usually packed like to the point where you can’t even move. Also, so many people get on and off so quickly that it would be difficult to keep track of people.
Berliner here. That’s not better at all. It makes it much easier to forget to validate the ticket, and the people who control are usually assholes.
IDK about that, have you ever been handcuffed and arrested by an armed uniformed police officer because you didn’t spend $3? Lots of people in NYC have. The transit system in Berlin sounds similar to the one we have where I live (not NYC). Here, you can get a fine (a couple hundred dollars iirc) and kicked off the train, but that’s it. Not pleasant, certainly enough to keep me honest, but a damn sight better than having a police record and maybe getting shot by a cop.
Dunno how it works there, as I’ve never used public transport there, but here in Tampere we have ticket readers right next to tram doors and everyone taps their card / mobile on those to activate the ticket. Not easy to forget at all. Same in local trains.
The thing I hated about the Munich system was having to validate your ticket. My girlfriend and her friends got harassed and threatened by a cop because they didn’t know they had to validate the tickets they bought.
That’s a job requirement.
London can take tens of minutes to get a ticket in peak times. Not a problem for most commuters, but for tourists and random travellers it sucks
Why would you get a ticket for the tube/bus/overground? You can now pay with any contactless card or apple/android pay.
The tube is fine, it’s the inter city rail that sucks
Can’t argue there, but I do recommend a train ticket app for e-tickets
This guy Finlands. Two of those cities are the same country haha. Toriiii 🇫🇮
LA does have turnstile-free trains though.
Nice! I haven’t had the opportunity to visit their system yet.
I was right near a station when I lived in North Hollywood, so we took the train constantly. I wish there was a train to the beach when I lived in L.A. because that was one of the big letdowns about the train system, but there is now! I don’t remember how much a ticket cost, but it was pretty affordable.
Even better is a whole free system like some cities are going to. LA is having a freeway widening project happening. If the money for that went to their public transit system, they could make it fare free for 20 years at the same price point as “just one more lane, bro” of freeway that will still be a parking lot anyway.
Actually the Metrolink trains that run to/from LA to/from the other nearby counties/suburban areas all work the same way, no turnstiles, just conductors checking for tickets on them.
Some local community cities even subsidize the monthly fees for the Metrolink trains.
And once the Metrolink trains get to downtown LA’s Union Station you take the subway to different areas (yes, LA does have a subway system as well).
That’s all great. I have been hearing about the LA transit build out for a while and I’m excited to see more investment for the region. It’s one of the largest metro regions in the world and deserves to have one of the best public transit systems to go with that.
If they could just get that Vegas high speed rail line to actually reach into downtown instead of stopping 40 miles out, it would be a serious upgrade to the Intercity efforts.
If they could just get that Vegas high speed rail line to actually reach into downtown instead of stopping 40 miles out, it would be a serious upgrade to the Intercity efforts.
Well, people don’t commute from Los Angeles to Las Vegas to work daily, which is what I understand this conversation is about, commuters paying their fares (or not).
Having said that, I totally agree with you.
You’d think that’d be a no-brainer, but I’m sure there’s probably legal reasons for it, or fighting the legal reasons so it’s costs reasons.
Maybe it’s just they don’t want to have the regional airports lose money from the lost fares to Vegas. /shrug
It’s going to be about cost of construction. You can build a lot of miles across the desert for the same price as a mile in the city. Getting all the way into the core of one of these expensive real estate markets in the world can’t be cheap. I hope they manage to make it happen at some point, though.
I can also assume the regional airports are also not overly pleased with the HSR build out too, but reducing car trips and plane flights is basically the core goal of the train.
People in LA don’t want a free system. Unfortunately we have a lot of problems that free covid fares exacerbated.
People in LA don’t want a free system.
-snort-
They must not be human. /s
Unfortunately we have a lot of problems that free covid fares exacerbated.
Commuting issues have been a problem in LA for decades before Covid existed. The Metrolink/subway system has existed since before Covid.
I don’t know what any of these responses is supposed to mean.
Since they ended the Covid free fare policy, the metro has been much much nicer and ridership has gone up as a result.
Since they ended the Covid free fare policy, the metro has been much much nicer and ridership has gone up as a result.
Could you elaborate on what the Covid-era problems were?
Metro was plagued with safety issues, open drug use and overdoses and deaths, and cars becoming permanent homeless housing.
I live in LA car free, and ridership has been rising a lot lately.
Mass transit should be free if they have ads on it
Mass transit should be free and not have ads on it.
In fact, all advertising in public spaces (including things like billboards mounted on private property but aimed towards the street) should be prohibited.
If I were “dictator for a day” one of the odd things I would do is ban all billboards. I think this every time I drive down the highway.
In Washington State, it’s relatively difficult to have billboards along highways. It’s one of the reasons our state is still beautiful to travel across.
Every time I end up in other states that have much looser billboard placement laws it’s just awful and I wonder how people can live like that.
At least last I was there, wholly illegal in Vermont. You also never see it in Norway.
Maine is a billboard-free state
Many cities have taken baby steps, such as prohibiting tall signs. More steps to go
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For the public and environment policy that mass transit is made for (freeing up parking space; removing polluting cars from the road; reducing congestion; reducing carbon burn) yeah. Mass transit should have no usage cost
I’ll accept public service adverts. Telling you about services, advertising health and well-being, telling you to keep your feet off the seats
Is the ad revenue on mass transit actually high enough to support its operation?(ignoring even maintenance or expansion, or the replacement of unrepairable vehicles)
It’s not, and I don’t even need to go look it up.
Operating a subway is expensive. Maintenance, new lines, new trains, you name it, it costs shitloads
It’s so expensive that the NYC subway used to be multiple private railroad companies but the business just wasn’t feasible (at a reasonable price) when the market had a downturn - which is why the city eventually took it over.
This is why the track geographies are so odd in NYC
Operating a subway is expensive only when you don’t compare it to operating a city on cars shrugs
Yes exactly this. Car infrastructure is the most expensive transportation infrastructure per capita possible. It’s why the US spends tons of public money on transportation and has just crumbling highways to show for it.
Might also be because of how massive the US is with relatively big distances between big cities
Most commutes are not between major cities, they are within metro regions, so the size of the US doesn’t explain the terrible infrastructure. Besides, for decades now, most of Europe has no political impediments to travel, same as the US. People can commute from Berlin to Madrid as if it were one country. Density matters, but not the size of the country.
As for density, there are many US regions that are of similar density and distance apart as European cities, such as DC-NY-Boston, or Portland-Seattle-Vancouver, SF-LA, etc.
It varies. Usually fares are just there to ration use of the mass transit, providing less than a third of its cost (ignoring capital)
Also: why would you ration transit? You want as many people as possible to use it
No one’s so cheap they cycle instead. Those who cycle do so for health. We could free up there roads for the die hard drivers
For bus systems at least the amount fares cover is typically on the order of 5% give or take in the US. The fact that bus fares exist at this point in the US has got everything to do with emotions, narratives and a political stance against providing a social safety net and nothing to do with cold hard economics.
The fares themselves usually account for a tiny portion of the overall revenue. For example, in 2021 the MTA had $7.8 Billion in revenue. And they are fighting for $100k of lost fares
I don’t care. I just hate ads.
McDonalds should show ads instead of charging me for a burger
I know this is a Captain Obvious moment but I’ll bite anyway, just imagine how great it would be if we just socialized public transit and our tax dollars worked for us, instead of trying to incarcerate us.
I was going to say it is a socialized transit program, but apparently the NYC MTA is a “public benefit corporation,” aka the bog standard neoliberal privatization fetish that oh-so-accidentally serves to funnel wealth to the C levels and boards.
What sort of country would it be if the police wasn’t trying to ruin anyone’s life on a daily basis?
Citations Needed did an episode about this. “Fare evasion” crackdown is a bullshit excuse to beef up cops and redirect public attention
I feel like you can make that case about sooo many ‘crackdowns’ because of the way crime statistics and reporting is done in America. But if that was true we’d eventually have declining violence rates in the face of over militarized police where the media focuses on spectacles of violence to justify the spendings. Good thing thats not what’s happening right now /s.
Something isn’t adding up here:
Fare evasion cost the MTA $690 million last year, according to a new agency study that recommends upping enforcement
Just casual news reading has shown different numbers here.
Edit: oh I get it hellgatenyc is looking for s story and saying that the people they caught only amounted to 104k in fares at like 3 bucks a fare or something around that that’s a lot of people. I’m not a fan of the NYPD but no way they didn’t deter way more than that by their presence. Whether or not you think policing fares is right this is bullshit sensationalism. Think for yourself.
At the same time, $150 million could fund a shitload of free or discounted rides for poor people if it was administered as a social program with the same decrease in fare skipping.
Public transit trips create positive externalities by reducing car trips. In order to maximize societal good, the best fare price for public transit is $0 for everybody.
Yup, public transit fares are regressive taxes.
A better city would have free public transit and pay for it by taxing the businesses that insist on nobody working remotely.
Can you imagine? Every business taxed according to the total transit time of their workers.
Either everyone lives in dense housing or everything becomes remote, it’d be amazing!
lol the wealthiest people that work in New York don’t live in New York, they mostly live in Connecticut and other close states. I’m all for it. Tax the companies that need their execs to show up the most, based on their salary, and then watch the boomers that don’t like working remote get feisty about the tax, especially because they usually have equity in the company they work for
This is what I want my taxes to pay for.
Yes, please! YIMBY
Right… But they spent $89m to prevent 104k in shrinkage…
If you’re the executive at Walmart who handles loss prevention, and you put $89m into a program that reduces shrinkage by $104k, your new duty position becomes “don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out”. It’s a gross mismanagement of public money, and while it was obviously glowed up considerably, that was what was implied In the title.
The lack of a comparison in overall losses specific to skipped fares before and after is a contemptible omission though, I’ll definitely join you on that hill :)
Of the estimated $690 million annual loss, buses accounted for the largest share with $315 million, subway evasion cost $285 million, about $46 million was due to drivers avoiding tolls and commuter rail evasion totaled $44 million, the report said. Source
Subway losses were $285 mil (41% of the total you quoted) and “the state reimbursed the city for about $62 million” of the $151 mil OT pay (leaving $89 mil).
Overall, there were 48 fewer serious crimes like murder, rape and robbery reported in the subway system this year than in 2022, according to NYPD data. The biggest change was 65 fewer reported robberies, where someone stole property by using force or the threat of force. There were also seven fewer reported rapes this year and four fewer murders, according to the newly released data shared with Gothamist. Assaults were an exception, rising by 5%. There were 26 more assaults this year than 2022, according to data. Source
So numbers are the same.
And then there’s this gem …
The vast majority of New Yorkers ticketed and arrested for fare evasion this year – 82% and 92% respectively – were not white, according to NYPD data. That’s a pattern that’s stayed consistent since 2017, when the NYPD first started publicly reporting fare evasion arrest data. Black New Yorkers are 10% more likely now to be ticketed for fare evasion than they were six years ago.
Tell me again how “good” the NYPD is.
First, fantastic job tracking down the actually relevant stats rather than the person above you who was trying to debunk.
Second - and this would only make your argument stronger and I’m not saying you needed to go this far - we would need to see if there has been an overall drop in crime rates. The tough on crime types love to tout numbers that reflect general trends as if they’re a justification or proof of the effectiveness of their policies. You need to demonstrate using proper statistical analysis to show that the falloff can accurately be attributed to a given policy.
One thing I miss about Reddit is the vetting of news sites on the major news sub.
Whether right or wrong, this “news” article comes off as pretentious and childish.
I just want facts. If I’m reading the news, I want the facts from the news site, and I’ll get the opinions from forums.
That’s nothing. Trump never paid taxes for a decade on millions of dollars of income and property. No one bothered to catch him until it was convenient to not get a psycho president again.
It’s not about the fares, it’s about the control.
If I spent $150m in my private sector job and did not at least net in the positive, I’d be out right shit canned and black listed from the company, along with everyone who approved such a waste.
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I know it can be difficult to search for answers when you have questions. I did a deep dive into the subject matter, and found the following info hidden within the first sentence:
Overtime pay for cops in New York’s subway system increased from $4 million in 2022 to $155 million over the same period in 2023, according to an analysis by Gothamist.
Jesus, someone call the burn unit
No point, they might as well of been thrown into the sun.
have been
Thank you teacher.
You’re welcome Daniel-san.
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Dude just be wrong
Thankfully there are a lot of grifters so at least we hope corruption reduced their arsenal
It’s not about money, it’s about sending a message. And also, being a clown.
Don’t forget the corruption.
- what message is that?
- Who are the targets of said message?
More rhetoric than actually asking, I think I have a pretty good idea on both.
It’s referencing a meme.
I love that scene… well that whole movie actually.
Message received, they are clowns.
Man they take that shit seriously. Roughly twenty years ago, I was headed for a train, which I paid for. I think the mechanics were that I bought a paper ticket that had a magnetic stripe on it, then put that into the turnstile to enter.
The turnstile ate the ticket, didn’t let me go through, and didn’t come back out.
So I hopped it.
No fewer than four NYPD were right up on me and they were not happy about the situation at all. They surrounded me I guess so I couldn’t run?
I explained, and the only reason I got out of it was that some other people had seen me pay and attempt to put the ticket in and told the cops the same story I’d told them. This combined with my out of state license demonstrating that the whole thing was indeed new to me got them to let me go, but not without a very stern warning.
I really thought I was going down that night.
Cool, so the city paid for 4 people to sit and watch a turnstile for who knows how long to prevent, what, $100, $1000 in lost revenue?
It costs them $50/hr per cop (roughly). Is the argument really that this squad is stopping more than 60 people every hour from skipping fares?
I’ve seen no less than eight cops hiding around the corner from an open emergency door at Times Square. They truly are terrible.
They were so psyched they could, they never stopped to think about if they should?
Is farebeater what we’re calling it now?
Tbf I can do that without leaving my house.
imagine how much better the public transit in NY would have been with that 150 million.
What I’m hearing is if the fare was free they’d have saved at least $104,000 not including the salary of public servants that would be saved instead of spent on the same fare.
No, they would still have missed out on those 104k - but they would have saved 150M. That’s … yeah. A lot of school lunch meals.
No.
That’s not “all fares added up to 104 thousand”, that’s “the fares of people jumping turnstiles and walking in emergency exits added up to 104 thousand”.
Keeping the status quo of not replacing turnstiles would have been cheaper. But making fares free would be more expensive.
Which isn’t to say that it wouldn’t be worth it. Public transit is hugely valuable due to the economies of agglomeration it enables and the infrastructure you don’t have to build because of it. It benefits drivers, retail businesses, employers, etc.
An R160 subway car can hold 240 people; they run in 4 or 5 car sets. The E train has 15 trains per hour during peak times, and runs 10 car trains. So that’s a capacity of ~36k people, and it shares tracks with some other lines at various points
A highway lane can support 2.2 k people per hour in free flowing traffic. That single subway line can move as many people as a 16 lane highway, assuming that there’s no bottlenecks at the exits. Plus the cost of all the parking garages for 36k cars.
