• Taokan@sh.itjust.works
    123·
    2 days ago

    To be fair, showing no historical correlation and just assuming the problem or separation started this year because it’s specifically indexed to the start of the year, is garbage math. Like, you got the correct answer, but you did the problem completely wrong.

  • blady_blah@lemmy.world
    56·
    3 days ago

    Okay, here’s my conspiracy theory…

    Now let’s say you’re Trump and the supreme Court has said it’s just about impossible to convict somebody of corruption in the US. You see that you’re going to be elected president and your goal is to figure out how to make a crap ton of money off being present. Now you can do the boring old s make dignitaries stay at your hotel thing or have foreign governments. Give Jared kushner a bunch of money… But that’s all pocket change. If you’re president, you can crash the economy. If you know a bunch of Rich Russian oligarchs who can short the market and you can tell them exactly when the market will crash then they can make billions… And you can get your cut too.

    This is why Trump doesn’t really give a shit why the tariffs are in place. That’s why he makes up bullshit answers when asked why the tariffs are implemented. He doesn’t care. … But he really really really wants to yank the market around. First he says tariffs happening, then he says they’re not, then they’re happening again. Every time the market goes up and down he can make a shit ton of money if he can accurately predict when it goes up or down.

    I can’t get this idea out of my head. It makes more sense than anything else I can come up with. There’s so much money to be made if you have the power to yank around the u.s. economy and enough narcissism to not give a shit about the people hurt in the process.

    • isar@lemm.eeEnglish
      131·
      3 days ago

      What I’m wondering when reading such theories is: does money matter all that much to these people? Like when you’re 80+ years old and a billionaire I don’t see what the end game there is, unless it’s just an uncle Scrooge attitude but I still find it a bit hard to believe. I think that in order to become a billionaire you need to be seriously driven by something more than 0s - maybe power, influence or attention.

      • Slartibartfast@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        211·
        3 days ago

        You’ve got to step back a little to understand.

        The key thing is that it is not possible (excluding inheritance) to become a billionaire without being a scheming psychopathic cut-throat selfish person and having a determined drive to have power over others.

        The second key is it’s not possible to keep your billions without being a psychopath. This because you could never possibly spend that money in your lifetime and the only way to have accumulated it is through exploitation of labour.

        So it’s a thing you don’t need that you got via abusing others. They want power and they don’t care how they get it. They have no plan beyond that. Personally I think it’s mental health issues and the fact that we allow this in our flawed system.

        • shneancy@lemmy.world
          8·
          3 days ago

          it’s not just allowed it’s encouraged, in fact i’d go as far as to say it’s the only way to “win” in this system

        • MooseyMoose@lemmy.worldEnglish
          7·
          3 days ago

          It’s not wealth hoarding, it’s wealth OBSTRUCTION as a means to control everyone. It’s pathological fo sho.

      • blady_blah@lemmy.world
        8·
        3 days ago

        Logically you would think the answer should be that money shouldn’t matter much, but it always seems to. It’s still a way of keeping score and a proxy for power. They’ve always longed for more money/power and as they get older and their brain slows down, they don’t suddenly change. What old billionaire have you seen says “you know what? I’m going to give everyone raises! I don’t need more money! We should all be happy together!” (Almost) never happens. They want more and more and more… and then they die.

    • 10001110101@lemm.eeEnglish
      3·
      3 days ago

      Yeah, I think it’s either this, or the tariffs are extortion (announce tariffs, then solicit bribes from businesses and politicians). Could be both as well.

    • SaffronDovovan@lemmy.caEnglish
      2·
      3 days ago

      Exactly what I have been thinking. I should have scrolled down and read your comment before I made mine

    • beejboytyson@lemmy.world
      3·
      3 days ago

      That was my idea. These jarring and quickly implemented money drainers only really help ppl outside the market.

  • Allonzee@lemmy.world
    307·
    3 days ago

    However much pain we’re feeling and will be feeling, as a nation not individuals, we deserve oh so much more for our inhuman crimes in the name of capitalist private profit. We destabilized entire nations trying to become societies solely to maintain access to their resources for our capitalist’s exploitation.

    Every American better hope nation state karma doesn’t exist.

    • HappinessPill@lemmy.mlEnglish
      3·
      2 days ago

      I’m still waiting people understand that the way Trump treat Zelensky isn’t new in any way, most people are just aware of it now because it happened in Europe.

    • Lizardking13@lemmy.world
      2010·
      3 days ago

      Oh fuck off with this “deserves” bs. Everything listed on that infographic happened before I was 18. I don’t “deserve” any of this.

      • AreaSIX @lemm.ee
        83·
        3 days ago

        You’re screaming “fuck off, I don’t deserve any of this because those thefts were carried out before I was 18”, but you’re screaming that sitting on the stolen furniture in a stolen house. The crimes mentioned predating your eighteenth birthday doesn’t mean shit when you’re still benefiting from the results of those crimes.

        • taxiiiii@lemmy.world
          2·
          1 day ago

          If someone gets abducted and put in a stolen house with stolen furniture, are they to blame?

          Like, I get it, we enjoy the privileges and share the responsibility to change shit. But responsibility and blame are two different things.

          • AreaSIX @lemm.ee
            2·
            1 day ago

            Agreed. The person I was replying to took the initial comment regarding nation karma for the US very personally and started ranting that he didn’t deserve this shit. No one blamed him, and I was trying to convey the same thing that you wrote: it doesn’t matter that we were not personally responsible for the historical crimes our nations committed, if the current society we live in still bases its wealth on what was stolen. We’d be indirectly benefitting from those crimes and therefore would have a responsibility to acknowledge that and try to do what we can to even things out if and when we can. Rejecting all links to those historical crimes and any responsibility for them can come across as arrogant to those on the other side of that equation, those who were robbed. But the person started hurling insults so I was obviously unable to communicate what I wanted to communicate.

        • Lizardking13@lemmy.world
          34·
          2 days ago

          Everyone is benefiting and being hurt by decisions made in the past or decisions that they cannot control. These are meaningless statements. They don’t cause action, they don’t make people feel like they should do something. They just annoy people. The statements are ignorant. You have no idea who I am, what I do, how I live, etc.

          So you can also respectfully fuck off as well.

  • NotLemming@lemm.eeEnglish
    26·
    3 days ago

    Not just the great depression but the greatest depression ever in history, I mean the biggest, noone ever caused a bigger depression

    • KingJalopy @lemm.ee
      251·
      3 days ago

      Yo dawg, I heard you like tarriffs…

      Edit - Sorry… I’m usually better than that

      • joenforcer@midwest.social
        101·
        4 days ago

        Side note, why do people seem to struggle so much with the spelling of the word “tariff”? We’ve seen it so many times yet so many people get it wrong.

        • III@lemmy.worldEnglish
          46·
          4 days ago

          Not really a side note, this is just the tip of the “American stupidity and overconfidence that got us here” iceberg.

  • MordercaSkurwysyn@lemm.eeEnglish
    13·
    3 days ago

    Is there any chance for a future where the economy that matters, real people’s lives, production of useful goods and services, becomes decoupled from imaginary evaluations of billionaire’s gambling results? It really rustles my jimmies when I hear that a result of some banksters bet can get working families evicted and jobs dissapear.

  • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.worldEnglish
    335·
    3 days ago

    You need to extend the graph beyond January. The US has been riding an enormous localized wave that crested shortly after Trump’s inauguration. American securities (particularly the MAG7) are enormously overvalued, with revenue that is dwarfed by their stock price.

    This is a much-needed market correction, not a regional stock performance split from within the US.

    Not even suggesting Trump isn’t shit. Its very obvious that he’s popped the irrational optimism bubble we’ve been gliding on since even before COVID hit. But we were in a bubble. DOW 43k, never even mind the absurd NASDAQ run up, is not representative of the functional economic capacity of the nation as a whole. Without unlimited free money from the Fed to keep inflating asset prices, we were going to enter a downturn sooner or later.

    The real question is whether the DOGE Team will kick the knees out from under our Treasury/Fed countercyclical spending system on the way back to earth and cause us to land harder than necessary.

    • ne0n@lemmy.worldEnglish
      111·
      3 days ago

      Absolutely wild to look at this graph and say ‘welp that’s the correction we’ve expected and needed for a long time’ when it is quite clear it’s a reaction to Trump’s totally unnecessary trade war and the uncertainty he is (intentionally?) injecting into markets. There is no reason to expect that if there had been a different President elected, this outcome would have occurred.

      The even broader point is that there are a lot of people invested (literally and emotionally) in a continuing bull run. That doesn’t mean it’s a good idea, but suggesting that Trump or even less likely, DOGE have some master understanding of the economy and are doing this for its long-term health is an absolute fantasy.

    • 10001110101@lemm.eeEnglish
      3·
      3 days ago

      I doubt they’d do any fiscal spending through safety nets, since they are dismantling them; I suppose bail-outs could be on the table. I’ve seen some analysts/economists claim that the Trump admin wants to devalue the USD to grow the manufacturing sector, and the admin seems to be pressuring the Fed to lower interest rates. The consensus seems to be that stagflation is what’s actually going to happen. I don’t quite understand why the admin wants to bring back manufacturing sector, because they’re typically low-wage jobs (especially if not unionized), and unemployment was pretty low. Among the billionaire class, there seems to be a concerted effort to shed decent-paying jobs, so I guess the plan is for those people to go work on assembly lines.

    • SaffronDovovan@lemmy.caEnglish
      3·
      3 days ago

      I am pretty sure trump warns his friends when he is about to make another irrational stupid statement- they are investing accordingly- taking advantage of an upswing and a downturn

  • ItsTheNorm@lemmy.zip
    51·
    3 days ago

    How dare Biden tank the economy while trump is president just to make him look bad! Any day now, all these incomprehensible tariff ramblings, threats, and further ostracization of our allies are going to make America so great! /s

    • taladar@sh.itjust.works
      4·
      3 days ago

      Maybe Trump just didn’t know how to spell and he just meant “Make America grate again” because it certainly does something like that to most people’s nerves at the moment.

  • JiveTurkey@lemmy.world
    1181·
    4 days ago

    Tbh Wall Street can fuckin off. They helped create this mess. If this ship is going down, let’s make sure none of the assholes find a seat on a life boat.

    • jaybone@lemmy.world
      1011·
      4 days ago

      All of everyone’s retirement accounts are invested in the market. So it’s not just those assholes who get fucked by this.

      • yetAnotherUser@discuss.tchncs.de
        13·
        3 days ago

        Maybe it will force Americans to do something against that? If no one has any retirement, there’s bound to be a lot of public outcry. There’s nothing to lose if you have nothing.

      • redfellow@sopuli.xyzEnglish
        1·
        2 days ago

        In the USA, not everywhere, luckily. It’s as if the repercussions will hit you guys harder than the ones Trumpet is trying to blow at.

      • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.worldEnglish
        512·
        3 days ago

        All of everyone’s retirement accounts are invested in the market.

        Americans not willing to recognize that Social Security exists is such a fucking capitalist vibe

        • WraithGear@lemmy.worldEnglish
          14·
          3 days ago

          Social security is not enough to live off of. Is projected to be unobtainable for future generations who are paying into it, and is currently on the chopping block

          • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.worldEnglish
            56·
            3 days ago

            Social security is not enough to live off of.

            Nevertheless, it is 40% of retirement income. And none of it comes from the stock market.

            projected to be unobtainable for future generations

            Projected by advocacy groups trying to abolish social security.

            • WraithGear@lemmy.worldEnglish
              72·
              3 days ago

              You are being untruthful and dismissive: https://www.ssa.gov/oact/tr/2024/tr2024.pdf Page 9 is the jist.

              They are going to have to change something either raise the retirement age or lower the payments both which make it more unobtainable then it already is. And that 40% is based what people make… in a time of rising inflation and stagnant wages…

              The fact that social security is not tied to the market is super irrelevant, when the argument was that the 401k is in danger, when social security already is not enough to live on. so it’s important that people have a successful 401k to supplement it.

              • Bronzebeard@lemm.eeEnglish
                7·
                3 days ago

                The real solution is making the average wage go up. Significantly. Which puts more money into the program overall.

                With so much money having been shifted away from the average worker and Into the pockets of people who hit the FICA cap in their first paycheck of the year, over the last few decades, it was bound to have issues.

              • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.worldEnglish
                32·
                3 days ago

                They are going to have to change something either raise the retirement age or lower the payments

                Or just pay directly out of the general fund, which they can do with a simple vote in Congress and which they already do for Medicare/caid.

                The fact that social security is not tied to the market is super irrelevant

                It is the primary argument both for and against the program. Investors kick and scream about the benefits of compound interest, right up until a big market nosedive and bankruptcy spree. Meanwhile, it’s the benchmark for guaranteed basic income that progressives love to reference.

                Decoupling income from economic growth isn’t irrelevant. It’s the program’s entire raison d’etre.

                • WraithGear@lemmy.worldEnglish
                  2·
                  3 days ago

                  You would have the tax payers pay even more of the burden now, with out the benefit of even having it contribute to their social security… to pay the gap in social security, damning the tax payers twice. That’s not a permanent solution on top of that! I’m not saying social security should be attached to the market. I mean we are talking about the market fall after all! I am saying that being flippant that everyone Just needs to remember they have social security is dismissive and not relevant.

    • takeda@lemm.eeEnglish
      22·
      4 days ago

      Oh you can be sure Congress will be working overtime to pass a bill with relief to those big businesses that cannot fail.

        • Viskio_Neta_Kafo@lemm.eeEnglish
          3·
          3 days ago

          That’s not true. They definitely should do way more to help the working class but the numbers show that the economy in general is better under them.

        • ace_of_based@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
          33·
          3 days ago

          Uh, yes. We could talk about unemployment numbers, but even if we did (and i have a distinct feeling you’re being vague because you don’t plan to) those numbers aren’t by a long shot the only metric we use measuring the economy.

          In fact a lot of ways “the economy” is measured doesn’t take into account things the average citizen cares about, like cost of living etc. hence my use of the widespread pejorative "rich peoples yacht money

      • Slartibartfast@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        73·
        3 days ago

        Nonsense. Disappointed this gets upvotes.

        How the hell are the democrats the party of enriching the wealthy when compared to the fucking R’s?? I mean fucking hell have any of you ever read a book or even glanced at historic and current R policy?

        • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.worldEnglish
          4·
          3 days ago

          How the hell are the democrats the party of enriching the wealthy when compared to the fucking R’s??

          glances at the Obama administration unprecedented market bull run while foreclosures were rampant and low-income poverty surged

          The Americans, in typical capitalist extravagance, insist on having two right-wing parties instead of one.

          I mean fucking hell have any of you ever read a book or even glanced at historic and current R policy?

          Democrats sow, Republicans reap. But the line only ever consistently goes up for the already wealthy. Passive income dominates wage growth. Assets prices outrun revenues thanks to our investor-friendly monetary policies. And the Piketty R > G math, with ®ate of investment return > (g)ross domestic profit yield, leads to a steady consolidation of property in the hands of a shrinking ultra-wealthy minority under both parties.

          Yes, democrats do periodically have to save capitalism from itself - for which the bourgeois are perpetually aggrieved. But what did Obama do when he was handed half the financial sector on a platter by the outgoing Bush Administration? Did he properly title homeowners who had already paid in mortgage several multiples of the face value of their homes? Did he cancel a bunch of outstanding student loan debt, so that college students weren’t perpetually hobbled by interest payments on debt? Did he universalize Medicaid or even deliver on a public option to evade insurance company graft?

          No. He gave the bankers their crooked banks back for a vanishingly tiny ROI. He forgave the debts of major lenders, bailed out executives, propped up stock prices of major hedge funds and corporate institutions, subsidized private insurance to the benefit of the insurers, downsized Medicaid during the Government Shutdown fight, increased school privatization at the primary level, and did literally nothing for his most zealous base of supporters - educated professionals.

          And then his party got absolutely washed in the subsequent three election cycles, culminating in the nation’s most incestuous pedophile taking the White House in 2016.

          And that was Obama, the closest thing to a progressive the party has produced since LBJ. Carter, Clinton, and Biden were even worse.

        • CheeseNoodle@lemmy.worldEnglish
          31·
          3 days ago

          Realistically the right makes things worse for the 90%, the centre makes things worse for the 90% but slower. At least in recent history.

        • ace_of_based@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
          13·
          3 days ago

          I’m disappointed in you too friend, but how is that effin pertinent?

          Discussion and disagreement are what boards are for, not clown ass comments like “muh disappointment” lolol lemmy get a load of this guy

              • Slartibartfast@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
                1·
                3 days ago

                Ooh babys getting angry.

                Actually that is a different comment chain. A different comment in this particular board.

                You don’t know what thread means do you?

                I thought discussion is what we’re here for? You seem to be getting upset.

        • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
          22·
          3 days ago

          I don’t think its “compared” to the Rs but just in general they are good for “rich ppl yacht” money. Your instant move to compare the two parties (making bad policy OK by comparing it to “OH FUCK” policy) is why the usa is in the state it is now.

          • Slartibartfast@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
            12·
            3 days ago

            Interesting. I didn’t know I had a say in US politics being 5000 miles away and not a citizen. I’ll be sure to smarten my ideas up. Send marine force 2 or whatever to pick me up and I’ll sort that shit show out for you once I kick trump in the balls/face.

            Also there’s literally only one other option so yea of course it’s compared to the opposition. That’s how the system is setup.

            • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
              2·
              3 days ago

              Are you sure you are replying to the correct comment? I am not american and yes I too have no say in their system, but “less bad” is still bad.

              Not sure why you think commenting on geopolitics and other nations economic policy means you need to fall to the same BS they have. Even less that making comments somehow gives us a say.

              • Slartibartfast@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
                11·
                3 days ago

                Yes I am sure. You suggested my rejection of your idea and comparison is why the US is like it is now. Hence the joke.

                Okay fine. They’re both bad. Which would you rather have won in 2024 now?

                I think you’ve fallen for a classic ‘if left/centre not perfect might as well burn the house down’ fallacy personally but we’ll agree to disagree.

              • Slartibartfast@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
                11·
                3 days ago

                Bitch please. Who’d want to be a US citizen. The others are locked in there with tools like you.

                Meanwhile in free roaming European: were laughing at you morons for electing a king.

                And what makes you think you need to be an inmate to talk about the joint?

                • ace_of_based@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
                  12·
                  3 days ago

                  English is your second language so maybe you missed how whether you wish to be a citizen or not was not my point, your definite ignorance was.

                  Stop trying to save face, you have nothing to say to me and the fact you’re still yappin is pathetic

  • Asafum@feddit.nl
    90·
    4 days ago

    What’s interesting to me is that the “shape” of the line still matches the global line pretty well so there are some “fundamental” aspects that still affect markets, but overall we’re in a nosedive for “some reason.”