E-bikes could get faster, more powerful and not require pedaling, in a move announced today by UKGOV. Cycling organizations are opposed to the plans.
We’re basically talking about a low power motorcycle/scooter with optional pedals at that point.
I think the question becomes, should you need to be licensed to operate and should you have to register/insure what essentially become ultralight motorcycles?
If you could get a $1-2k “motorcycle” that was an electric bike, having about a 45 mph top speed, a 20 mile range, and a detachable battery that you could take inside with you to charge, it would be such an efficient, practical method of transportation.
I really like the US take on this one actually. I’m pro ebike and absolutely love motorcycles, but 45 mph is too fast to not require a licence.
Here we have 3 classes numbered as such. Class 1 is 15 mph pedal assisted, class two is 20 mph pedal assisted, and class 3 is 28 mph and allows a dedicated throttle. Class 3 often has limitations for certain bike trails, but most class 3 comes have variable modes to limit them to class 1 and 2 speeds. Generally as long as you’re following trail speed limits you really don’t have to worry.
This part varies by state, but in general anything over 28 mph is considered a moped and requires a proper license. As an avid motorcycle rider I feel even 28 might be too fast for non-license, but I also understand keeping up with cars, especially in cities, is way safer so I get why the limit is a bit higher than you’d expect.
Class 1 is 15 mph pedal assisted, class two is 20 mph pedal assisted
This is incorrect. Class 1 is pedal-assisted only, up to 20mph. Class 2 ebikes have a throttle that can power the bikes up to 20 mph without pedaling.
Yeah it varies entirely by state, the last time I checked in North Carolina there’s a legal definition for “moped” which has a maximum speed fo 30mph, an engine of no more than 50ccs displacement, no external shifter controls, etc. And these are legal for road use without registration or a motorcycle license. I don’t know how or if they’ve adopted laws about electric assist bicycles, but I imagine if it can go more than 30mph under its own power it would require a license plate and a motorcycle endorsement to operate.
I rarely go over 20 mph on mine (class 3). I try and minimize the pedal assist but it allows me to push myself because I know if I go to far (I’m old and out of shape), I can use the throttle to get home. The only time I was close to that was on a 25 mile ride with my son last summer when it it was in the upper 90’s and humid. It was a circle route and the return was into a stiff breeze. The last mile or so was a slog and I used the throttle a lot just to get back.
At that speed, you want something beefier than a bike frame and parts. A US class 3 ebike is limited to 27mph on a 750W motor. That’s stressing the limit of bike parts, even with ebike tires and chains.
A typical human can put down around 250W into a bike, and the best athletes around 400W. 750W plus what you put into it is outside the original intent of bike parts.
If you want to go 45mph, everything needs to go up a notch in design. That increases both weight and cost. A $1-2k range is only possible with the cheapest crap scooter parts. Get closer to $4k and things look better.
People should have some kind of licensing for this. Always should have for the ICE versions, and probably for class 3 ebikes, too. Maybe just the motorcycle license, maybe something specific, but it shouldn’t be wide open.
I agree with most of what you’ve said.
However, I have a bottom of the barrel, 250w hub motor ebike. With pedal assist, it gets me cruising at 20mph no problem. I got it from Walmart for $400. I am pretty ignorant when it comes to production and manufacturing but it stands to reason that at 5x the price, they could make something that would safely go a little over twice the speed.
The problem with ebikes is that they manufacture all these huge, fat-tire, inefficient pieces of garbage and then price them at $3k like some luxury item.
I’m hoping cheap, fast ebikes are coming soon.
Wait, the bike I was hoping for already almost exists. Its called the goat v2. Its just a little over $2k with some promo codes and realistically, it’s a couple mph shy of 45.
I think we’re going to see bikes like this everywhere within 5 years, which is great!
I agree on the licensing part, but you don’t need to get that much beefier for 45mph that you spend USD$4k. $1-2k is good ebike territory, I’d put these are $2-3k for something reasonably priced. This is coming from someone that has a 110cc road-going motorbike. Yes, motorbike, not scooter. The frame is about twice as thick as a mountain bikes. The things that really needs the most beefing up are the fork suspension and headstem.
Honestly the whole bloody problem with electric motorbikes and scooters (of the sitting variety) is that they’re way overpriced for terrible range (<100km). Something in the $2-3k with that sort range that can go ~75kph would be the sweet spot for consumers I think. Especially if you’re paying the costs to get your motorcycle endorsement on top. Which is pretty pricey where I am in Australia.
Bike gears are just not meant for this kind of torque. Cassettes get worn way faster at 750W + rider output. The derailleur transmission is lightweight and cheap, but it has limits and needs to be abandoned if you go much higher.
Who was talking about using bike gears? But also, you should abandon derailleurs at any speed unless you’re racing the tour de france. The only advantage they have over internal hub gears is weight. And hub gears can be easily made strong enough to handle that sort of torque.
But you wouldn’t necessarily need gears At All for something throttle driven. Electric motors have more than enough range of RPM on a single speed gearing system to get to 45mph. E-bikes only have gears for the human component, not the motor.
I absolutely agree with this.
At this point making a helmet and insurance mandatory and minimal age is only logical. How many fatbikes will we see if any of the above becomes reality?
Here in the Netherlands fatbikes really started to become a thing after they made helmets mandatory for moped drivers
I’ve seen those. They’re 2-stroke and gas powered
Most of them are 4-stroke now, but thankfully they are gradually fucking off in general and being replaced with electric scooters.
You can get electric scooters. Some country in Asia banned use of gas ones because of the pollution and noise when electric ones became feasible.
Electric moped are a thing. Check out the Onyx RCR
It doesn’t add any cost to include a throttle on the ebike.
Regulate speeds, not mechanisms. Moving people to micromobility is a benefit regardless of the form of that micromobility. Speed is the safety concern, not any of this loophole-inducing nonsense.
No, no and no. In our country, there’s a loophole in traffic regulation allowing for anything under 25kph on bike paths if it’s electric powered. This resulted in a super dangerous situation for normal cyclists. I commute by normal bike and believe my it’s terrible:
- food delivery guys switched to electric scooters (think Vespa) and clog bike paths. These things are way too heavy in case of a collision with a pedestrian or cyclist.
- the 25kph speed limit is not observed! Either the manufacturers don’t care or the drivers tweak their rides.
- the acceleration is way too sudden. Even a regular E-Bike needs to ramp up to speed. And you see when the driver engages his drivetrain by way of them moving their legs. With a throttle you just have a lump of mass that suddenly jumps forward. Super unpredictable.
So now we basically have way too big, way too heavy and way too quick objects on bike paths endangering everyone else.
There needs to be strict mass limits for vehicles allowed on bicycle paths. There need to be acceleration limits. There need to be mandatory checks for pedal-less ebikes. If a bike from a manufacturer is found that can exceed the speed limit, there need to be existentially threatening fines. Because their products are threatening lives!
Thank you, way more eloquent than my rant.
Still, the issue isn’t the presence of a throttle. It’s the specs of the machine.
The idea that the law should be framed around whether or not the vehicle needs to be peddled is backwards. The relevant machine specs are what the legislation should address. Which is still, primarily, top speed. All incident evidence we have suggests that below ~20mph / 30 kph, even full automobiles see precipitous dropoffs in serious injuries, so that’s the place to start. We see most places really serious about bike networks going reasonably further past that (25 or 20 kph). That’s all reasonable. If you further want to have requirements on acceleration or weight, it’s worth investigating that.
Having the legislation require peddling is just a way to create weird loopholes in the law. It’s pearl-clutching and moral panic. And worse, it creates accessibility issues and can pressure people off the bikeped infrastructure who would’ve used it reasonably and safely back into cars.
The law should narrowly address the actual problem, not some tertiary smell the problem has created. The idea that a bike that has pedals is magically safer than an identical bike with an identical frame, motor, and everything which has a throttle is preposterous.
I am totally convinced an ebike with a throttle is safer and easier to use for its rider than one without one at any speed. I don’t think they should be required – because that’s just silly – but I think anyone the claiming opposite, that only peddled, throttle-less vehicles are safe, has fallen off the deep end.
Dutch?
When i visited Amsterdam i saw some pretty dangerous driving in the bike paths. High speed and heavy weight.
Nope, Austria. I can imagine they have the same problem in Amsterdam as we have here in Vienna.
You bring up a key factor here: mass. A traditional bicycle weighing 10kg, going 20kph has far less force/momentum than a 35kg ebike going the same speed, and when using the throttle, the acceleration rate from 0 to 20kph increases dramatically as well.
Currently in the US we have people riding class 3 ebikes (and particularly cargo bikes) that can have base weights of 70 or 80 lbs, plus the weight of the cargo, all going at 28mph with a throttle. That’s too much momentum to be safe around pedestrians and other bicyclists on multi-use trails.
IMO once ebikes start getting up to 750+ watt motors with a base weight of over 65 lbs, they should probably require some kind of licensing to operate, and perhaps insurance as well.
It’s also extremely useful for changing gears while riding uphill if its a hub motor style one.
Also good for taking off from a stop in traffic. Pedal assist is always laggy
Depends on the sensor type I think. Supposedly torque based sensors are more responsive
Pedal assist is always laggy
On Aliexpress bikes, sure.
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Here we have these 25kph IAmAbikeAndNotAMotorcylce Frankensteins on the bike lane and I freaking hate it. They go illegaly on the pedestrian, look at their phones while driving, block the narrow bike lanes. They should be supposed to have a drivers license and go on the street. Most if not all of them are food couriers. They should be treated as such.
Sorry for the rant, and funny enough I live in the EU (in Austria)
Same issues with them in the Netherlands. Fatbikes and the people who typically ride them are the worst. Fatbikes dont belong on the bike lane.
Fatbikes dont belong on the bike lane.
Why not?
I have an ebike that doesn’t require pedalling and goes up to 35km/h on full power and full battery. No fat tyres, you’ll be happy to know. (Although I still don’t understand why the width of tyre bothers you.)
I’ve driven a taxi for years, driving kids to school, doing this in the third gen. My father used to have “gentleman of the road” on the back of his car.
I use the same principles when in traffic.
My bike is awesome and the reason I don’t need to own a car myself.
Better bicycling infrastructure would be cool, and I support something that would come between be between pedestrians and cars as a a lane. I mean, bike lanes already exist, but a more dedicated “light vehicles” lane or smth that you can’t walk (or cycle slowly) on.
Why don’t you just get an electric vespa?
Because I like bicycling, and a vespa won’t fit into my apartment. (Can’t leave shit unattended in the bike cellar in my building.)
My bike doesn’t require pedalling, but because it’s an option, I usually do it and then feel good about it, which leads to a positive feedback loop.
A cold morning? I don’t need to use electricity, just pedal and warm up. Get a bit hot, don’t want to arrive at job while sweating? -> Glide on electricity and take in the cool breeze.
You`re kidding yourself . A bike without peddaling is called a moped, scooter or motor.
Your vehicle doesnt compare at all to a normal bycicle.
Honestly people riding fatbikes are just avoiding having to wear a helmet and want the next best thing
No, you’re kidding yourself, thinking you know what I’m speaking of.
A lot of people have to ask me whether my bike is electric or not. I’ve owned a moped, a scooter and a light motorbike (125cc). (so dope, I looked up the model and that’s the exact bike I had, on sale. Not a similar one, the SAME exact bike, it has custom colours. I owned it about 20 years ago.)
Now this is roughly the first image from Google with “bicycle”.
Here is what I ride now. Now please — and be honest — tell me which one of the first four images is that most like?
Did a guy riding a fatbike steal your girlfriend or something?
Where are you from dude? NL based or elsewhere?
Asking because you clearly live in a different world then I do And also completely deaf to all my previous arguements about issues we`re having here. . in the Netherlands.
But hey … im glad you`re happy with your ride.
Ebikes with a throttle are still ebikes, in the US the are specifically listed as class 2 ebikes. I get what you’re saying but ebike definitions get a little blurred depending on where you’re talking about.
In the US you (hardly) have any bicycle infastructure and ride on the same road as cars.
In the Netherlands bikes and vulnerable traffic ride on seperate lanes. Introducing bikes that go 50 km/h there driven by 10 years creates a problem. This issue simply doesnt exist in the US, hence the different classification and laws
Also: Many fatbikes here are illegal and/or tweaked. People simply dont care and ride around uninsured and unsafe at 50 km/h while using their phone.
Im from the Netherlands, we have great bike infrastructure. But fatbike cyclists in particular are horrible drivers, endanger everyone else and dont follow any traffic rules.
Im sure you are a smart and responsible person but the fact is 99% of fatbike cyclist here are assholes
Also: We have 10 year olds driving on tweaked fatbikes going 50 km/h . Not legal but a national problem. Explain to me how its safe for a 10 year old to drive such a vehicle
Secondly a normal bike is a fraction of the weight of a fatbike. And the fatbike is moving twice the speed. If a collision does happen the normal cyclist is very much more at danger then with any normal bike.
The annual death amongst cyclist has skyrocketed here in the Netherlands. Ebikes and fatbikes are certainly a big factor in this.
Are you sure you’re not generalising a bit?
Because I’m sort of sure assholes can ride slim tyres as well… I’ve seen many.
I’m just not getting the causation of fat tyres = asshole driver.
Also, mine aren’t fat tyres. Not that it matters. Normal bike but a hub motor in the rear and a battery in the frame.
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…isn’t that just a motorcycle or scooter?
Yes but speed limited to and in bike form. I guess yeah you can argue it’s not a bike anymore but who cares? To me the important thing is that it should be allowed in bike lanes if it conforms to existing ebike standards. People with disabilities might not be able to pedal and I don’t see why they should be prohibited from using a bike lane just because their bike is powered entirely by electricity instead of just mostly.
I think the distinction will come down to the frame and how you sit on it
Bureaucracy described!
Based on the other things the UK gov has been saying, I assume this is some ploy to reduce the prevalence of e bikes.
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I don’t really see the point in removing the ability to pedal. What, just to remove yet another age old tried and true basic technology from our lives? Pedals offer an alternative natural power source when your battery gets low, and some people still occasionally enjoy exercise.
32KPH ≈ 20MPH
That does sound fairly reasonable for a bicycle speed limit. Most typical mechanical bicycles tend to have an average comfortable cruising speed of around 11 to 12MPH. Max speed really depends on the gearing of the bike and how much energy the rider can put into it, but it’s not unreasonable nor difficult to refrain from going over 20MPH.
If I do ever get an electric bicycle, I want mine with the option to pedal as well.
They are talking about removing the obligation to pedal, not the option (which I agree with you, it’s a good option to have)
I think it’s a very sensible decision, I’m from a EU country with 250W limit which is very anemic for the dangerous city streets we have in my town. A throttle is much safer especially when starting from a stop, but it’s currently illegal to have on.
Huh, okay, I get the article a little better now. Sorry I’m not very familiar with rules and regulations regarding electric bikes, or even mechanical bikes for that matter.
Where I live, the only regulation they have for bicycles actually applies to automobiles, they have to give bicyclists 3 feet of space when they pass. That’s it. No speed limits, no helmets necessary, just use common sense and don’t ride in the middle of the highway.
I’m glad to live in a very bicycle friendly city.
E scooters are completely different:
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they have significantly less range for the same battery size.
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can’t make it up some hills depending on the torque of the motor on the scooter
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less comfortable to ride a long distance
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easier to store and transport, especially in a small car or on the bus or train (depending on the size of the scooter)
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more difficult to park/lock up outside in public spaces, but can sometimes be taken with you when a bicycle would have to be locked up outside
The OP is talking about electric mopeds, not electric “kick” scooters. The fact that scooter means at least 5 different things is very confusing but there you go.
The people that upvoted you clearly did not click either of those links. I also thought the commenter sounded like an old fart who was amazed at electric “kick” scooters. But then I clicked the link before writing a whole comment about it.
I didn’t click the link either, but yeah I’ve never heard of mopeds referred to as “e-scooters” before, but I guess that could be a regional thing…
You’ve never heard a Moped be called a Scooter before? Dude put “scooters” in quotes. He was trying to convey it in a brief comment. You wrote out a huge, condescending reply instead of clicking the links. I think that’s on you mate.
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I like it. I’m an ebike rider here in Canada and we have 500w restrictions at 32km/h, honestly, 500w might be fine for average size people but I’m a heavy dude. When my bike is restricted to the legal limit, and I’m on any kind of difficult terrain or incline, the machine struggles. I bought a 750nom/850peak ebike for myself and it is absoltuly nessecary for safe and effectic operation. Limiting the power is just asking for me to take an injury or fail to launch.
I still observe the 32km/h limit and leave my speed limiter on.
A mid drive might help get more out of 500w
Bit late for that for me but maybe next time.
Same here lol, next time though!
Restricting the wattage (as opposed to top speed) is dumb. Never mind heavy dudes; consider cargo bikes!
Hub motor I assume. My mid-drive 250W e-fatbike climbs near-vertical hills effortlessly.
Yea, I couldn’t find a good step through with mid drive in my price range. I have flexibility problems so it had to be a step through too. But I am very happy with my hub motor.
I think the lines between ebike, escooter, and emotorcycle are pretty blurred right now.
The primary delineation should be speed. This bike path has an upper limit of 30 mph, this road has a lower limit of 45 mph no matter which 2 or more wheels you’re on. And no wheels allowed on the pedestrian only sidewalk.
The tech and use has changed enough that governments should rethink this entire space, IMHO.
As long as the speed limit remains the same as for pedal-assist bikes then I don’t really see any difference wether the rider is pedaling or not.
Exactly. Class 2 already has a throttle lever.
Ehhhhhh I can’t agree. When you’re pedaling it’s a completely different feel and mentality. It still feels very much like a bicycle and you belong in bike lanes.
No pedaling is a motorbike and you belong on the road.
Only exemption is for physically disabled. I think they could have no pedaling and 30 km/h just so they have access to bike lanes.
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Oh, great. This guy ‘feels’ like it’s totally different? Case closed!
🙄
I know what you’re trying to say, but in this case “feel” translates pretty directly you how it handles, and differentiating how they handle isn’t a bad way of categorizing
Kind of stupid idea. There is a place and need for light weight transport that is assisted bicycle. Our law classifies these (and electric scooters) as light electric vehicles and has special set of rules for them. Things like when driving on pedestrian paths they can’t move faster than 5km/h. On roads maximum is 25km/h but they have to wear reflective west. Kids must wear helmets, etc. For the most part sensible requirements.
That said I am of the opinion everyone should take a test to participate in traffic, bicycles included. For bikes there aren’t many rules they need to know anyway. They can skip almost all of the signs except those for the right of way. So it would be easy test but a necessary one. And simply bar kids on bicycles in traffic lanes and that’s it. Safest for everyone.
It’s hard to balance on a bike at 5km/h so that rule alone rules out bicycles from riding on a footpath, which is fine IMO
Not impossible but I think the idea is to make bicycles less annoying to pedestrians.
Just so you know, ebikes sold in Europe don’t have a hand throttle, because laws.
But also, most ebike manufacturers use generic motor controllers.
Is there a small panel somewhere on your ebike? Take it off and see if there’s a small aluminium box in there with dozens of wires coming out of it.
Chances are, one of those sets of wires ends in an unused black plug, with a red, a black, and a green wire going to it.
That’s the throttle plug.
Any old generic throttle from Crapazon will fit it. You might have to swap the wire colours.
Enjoy :)
It’s trivial to make most adjustments to these bikes. Disabling speed limiters etc.
It’s still illegal however
I’m not suggesting someone should actually, like, go ahead and do it because it’s so easy, Mr GoodyTwoShoes
Idk how it is over there but here police have a very clear understand of what you can and can’t do with an ebike and you will probably be stopped.
Bear in mind, Europeans don’t live in a fascist police state and the police are pretty unlikely to shoot you for having a throttle on your bike 🙄
Most of our cops don’t know the laws, so if they shoot you it’s just for fun.
wait but which wire do I cut to disarm the bomb
If I remember correctly, they are allowed to have a thumb throttle if it’s capped at 6km/hr (which is still very handy for starting, especially on a cargo bike). On a generic Bafang/similar motor controller, that’s a purely software limit that anyone with a programming cable can change.
People who do this kind of stuff are the reason the rest of us can’t have nice things. Same as with Surrons fucking up bike trails and then getting all ebikes banned from there.
Personally I’m of the mind that people should be free to tinker with their things, and regulations should be specific enough to appropriately respond the performance to whatever the thing has
It is not wrong to modify the bike that is your property to change or customize its appearance or functionality. It’s wrong to be inconsiderate, or a dick. I think the distinction is important
They should be free to do that up to a point. A moped needs a licence to drive and it needs to be registered and insured and you need to wear a motorbike helmet while riding one and you’re not allowed to ride it on the sidewalks or on forest trails. If your ebike is effectively a moped then the same rules should apply.
Where I live a pedal-assist ebike with 250 watt motor that’s limited to 25kph is considered a bicycle and you’re allowed to ride it where ever you’re allowed to ride a bicycle aswell. However if it goes faster than that or is a more powerful then I think it’s only reasonable that there’s a different set of regulations for a bike like that. I’m not allowed to drive a car on the sidewalk either even if I go slow so I don’t see how electric motorbike is that much different.
That’s a moped. I suppose they have their space too.
