He’d give up on Ukraine. And call it a win.
“Winning the battle is worth losing the war”
(Trump, The Art of the Deal, pp. 179-181)
“I could make a deal with Hitler to stop this war tomorrow!”
Yeah pretty much.
Aka appeasement. We tried it Donny. Though this time it’s Trump who wants to be dictator.
Trump doesn’t care so long as Russia keeps paying him.
That’s a short sentence for that many pages. I knew it was in big print, but…
It’s illustrated so his voters can understand the book
The Jews would have had peace if they’d just let themselves be taken to camps peacefully.
This is less funny because Russia literally did commit a holocaust in Ukraine.
or maybe extort them again.
Yea, that infuriated me.
He also still refused to admit he lost four years ago, and admit any fault or regret for Jan 6th. And he showed zero remorse or awareness about the Central Park Five. Pure deflection for every single question.
It was obvious as hell that he wants Russia to win.
All we have to do is make him president elect! We don’t even have to inaugurate him!
You’ll get all the Logan act violations you seek if you act now!
This gets me - if he’s that fucking clever then he should have ended it by now. And he says he’s good friends with Zelensky, how? Do they go out drinking together? They’ve probably spoken twice. America should be ashamed of Trump the Liar.
America should be ashamed of Trump the Liar.
Americans capable of feeling shame are. Unfortunately, his base is incapable of feeling shame, so there’s no effect there.
They’re capable of feeling shame, just not for good reasons. Like, they can feel ashamed of thinking a trans person is hot.
he will allow Russia to win yes, in exchange for favours probably
Has he not done enough already for that wretched, glorified petrol station they call a country.
He is in a LOT of debt, financially and politically, to Russia. And he also is desperate to win, because if he loses he’s going to jail. He’ll do anything Putin wants him to
What makes you think he hasn’t already been given the favor years or decades ago and how he’s the one repaying it and he’ll get nothing in return?
Mostly the fact that Trump never pays his debts.
I have to wonder if the potential for accidentally falling out of a window goes any way into affecting the way he approaches certain debts.
No. If Trump were capable of conceptualizing losing and suffering consequences he wouldn’t do half the shit he does.
Can’t argue with that one lol
Of course he does, he’s a bought man.
Yea, what a POS he is for pretty much admitting this. Not that we didn’t know this already.
This stood out to me. Do we know of anyone who Trump might be worried about upsetting if he said he wanted Ukraine to win? Anyone at all?
Do we know of anyone who Trump might be worried about upsetting if he said he wanted Ukraine to win? Anyone at all?
That question is awkwardly worded, why are you putin it that way?
Just not russian to any conclusions
Tsar right to know if he’s compromised.
Moscows are fat. Trump is fat. Coincidence? Probably not.
?
Moscows=most cows
Ah.
Thanks
Fun fact: at his mother’s deathbed, Stalin reportedly told her that he had “become something like the Tsar”. Perfectly accurate FWIW.
What is confusing to me is why would it matter to Putin if Trump lied here? The Russian mode of government is lying and deception after all.
Does he actually think that his voters want Ukraine to lose? Oh fuck, do his voters actually want Ukraine to lose?
They’ve been listening to the Russian trolls and bots.
And bought and paid for Tim pool
Their line isn’t that Ukraine should lose, it’s that America shouldn’t give them money while homeless vets, Ukraine is corrupt, biden crime family, nato expansion, etc. Which coincidentally are all Russian talking points.
Those damn russians, constantly bringing up recent history like that.
Didn’t Hunter get like millions of dollars from both Russian and Ukranian oligarchs? It’s so cool how the kids of politicans always end up with these sweet deals- and to think Trump is claiming to be the deals guy
Oh thanks, I forgot hunter Biden.
Now go and Google what the Budapest memorandum was.
Russia stated that it had never been under obligation to “force any part of Ukraine’s civilian population to stay in Ukraine against its will.” Russia suggested that the US was in violation of the Budapest Memorandum and described the Euromaidan as a US-instigated coup.
Yes, the CIA psyop’d over 70% of the country to support joining the EU, then forced yanukovitch to say “screw that we love Russia” and piss everyone off. And the totally organic resistance movement in the east that happened to have russian equipment and… Soldiers? Yeah just the people self determining or whatever.
So what about the ethnic Russians, and the rest of the non-Ukranian speakers?
There was a base of people (30% per your post) who didn’t support this and when the government cracked down on resistance, city centers ended up shelled with artillery for years.
Just a shitty situation to get caught in the middle of, frankly. Did you support NATO intervention against Serbia when it used its military on a breakaway region?
Half the big right wing youtubers are getting paid by Russia.
Yes. They want Ukraine to lose.
I remember when Russia did go in, briefly Fox News was full of editorializing that Russia should get to have Ukraine. They at least tried to got full on pro-Russia when they thought the narrative might fly and Ukraine was going to just get conquered in a week or so. Clearly they were trying to set things up for blithe acceptance for what Russia had done and for the world to move on (until next time).
I think that between the prolonged conflict and the fact that their boomer audience actually may still be inclined to remember their cold war feelings that this won’t fly, that they backed off to less aggressively calling for complete Russian victory. But as seen here, there’s still a theme of making it clear that you’re ok with whatever outcome, leaning toward “but should we spend our money?” to undermine things rather than calling for a pro-russia outcome outright.
I wonder if a big part of the reason is just the whole phone call about Biden and subsequent impeachment, and how Zelenskyy wouldn’t play ball and the whole thing damaged Trump’s ego in a big way. So even if it’s politically advantageous in every way to say you want Ukraine to win, Trump is incapable of doing so.
The whole reason he tried to keep weapons from Ukraine was because he was given instructions by Putin to make Russia’s planned invasion easier.
Trump being Trump, he tried to extort some political favors or of Zelenskyy first, but clearing a path for Putin was always the goal.
Putin’s mum.
Do we know of anyone who Trump might be worried about upsetting if he said he wanted Ukraine to win?
Yes, I think there’s this one man, Trumps big idol, I think his name was Vladimir the war criminal Putin.
His boss sure as shit doesn’t want Ukraine to win.
His boss wants to stay in power, Ukraine is just convenient way of doing it.
Ukraine was a massive fuck up for Putin. He believes in the bullshit known as color revolution.
So he thought he’d pull one in Ukraine. A few years of some soldiers fucking around in the East, then he’d walk in and be welcomed.
Which is fucking stupid.
But Putin has long since killed anyone who would tell him that an idea is stupid, or that people don’t work the way a paranoid, backstabbing KGB trained psychopath thinks they do.
No, Putin fucked up hard due to the dictator trap.
Now he’s scrambling. He’s been killing off rivals and opponents at a breakneck pace the last few years, all because his position has never been weaker.
And he barely managed to diffuse a coup attempt.
He had to use treachery to do it, so the next time, the coup leader will not back down.
No, Putin is desperate to pull out some sort of win in Ukraine, because anything else is the end of his rule, and likely his life.
And he barely managed to diffuse a coup attempt.
Context?
Priggy’s aborted thunder run: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group_rebellion
Ohh, I forgot about that. Not sure if that coup would have made things better, but it was an interesting time.
It would have made shit so much worse, but is a sign of weakness in Putin’s rule.
That’s why Putin is so murder happy right now. He’s having to reconsolidate his rule.
Russian Asset. Better dead than Red.
Americans being so politically illiterate they think that the government they practically installed is somehow communist.
lol remember to vote I guess
Nothing stupider than an American. Well, an American with a political agenda maybe.
russia isn’t “red” and never really was to begin with
That’s what annoys me the most. Tankies will go defend Russia like it’s the promised land of communism, when the only remnant of communism it has is rigged elections and propaganda.
Also wrong. Rigged elections would imply there ever was a communist Russia. There never was. It was (maybe at its best, in part) socialist and most of the time after the zars a military state. That is true for all states that were left leaning btw. No communists to be found.
No true Scotsman
Russia very much was communism in the real world.
Great argument. What do you base this on?
It’s like china calling itself communist right now.
Yes there was rhetoric in the USSR that suggested they were but it was an instrument to legitimate the horrible things that they did to their people.
From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_society
A communist society is characterized by common ownership of the means of production with free access[1][2] to the articles of consumption and is classless, stateless, and moneyless,[3][4][5][6] implying the end of the exploitation of labour.[7][8]
That was not the case. It was state owned, as the transition from whatever system was there before to socialism plans. Communism is supposed to be something different.
I am not arguing that it would be good or better than anything we have today but am saying that we never saw communism in the modern world.
Change my mind with arguments and not down votes.
Okay lets use wiki as a source… https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_communist_states
The following communist states were socialist states committed to communism. Some were short-lived and preceded the widespread adoption of Marxism–Leninism by most communist states.
Russia Russia Chita Republic (1905–1906) Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (1917–1991) Amur Socialist Soviet Republic (1918) Turkestan Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1918–1924) Volga German Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1918–1941) Bashkir Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1919–1991) Tatar Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1920–1990) Kirghiz Autonomous Socialist Soviet Republic (1920–1925) Mountain Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1921–1924) Dagestan Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1921–1991) Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1921–1941; 1944–1945) Yakut Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1922–1991) Buryat Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1923–1990) Karelian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1923–1940; 1956–1991) Kazakh Autonomous Socialist Soviet Republic (1925–1936) Kirghiz Autonomous Socialist Soviet Republic (1926–1936) Mordovian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1934–1990) Udmurt Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1934–1990) Kalmyk Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1935–1943; 1957–1991) Checheno-Ingush Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1936–1944; 1957–1991) Kabardino-Balkarian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1936–1944; 1957–1991) Komi Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1936–1991) Mari Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1936–1991) North Ossetian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1936–1993) Karelo-Finnish Soviet Socialist Republic (1940–1956) Kabardin Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1944–1957) Tuvan Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1961–1992) Gorno-Altai Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic (1990–1991) Soviet Republic of Soldiers and Fortress-Builders of Naissaar (1917–1918) Donetsk–Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic (1918) Crimean Socialist Soviet Republic (1919) Far Eastern Republic Far Eastern Republic (1920–1922) Tuvan People's Republic Tuvan People's Republic (1921–1944) Soviet Union Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (1922–1991)Would you look at that…
China doesn’t call itself communist. It’s Socialist with Chinese characteristics.
You are right, I mixed something up
Same argument though for socialism. They are a capitalist country that calls itself something else. You don’t seriously believe they are socialist In any other way than their name.
This is a semantic matter. No socialist state has ever claimed to have reached the stage of communism, including China. But some socialist states—including China—have been/are run by communist governments/parties, which claim to be working toward reaching that stage.
Communism isn’t about ideological purity. The USSR never made it to the global, total, Stateless, Classless, Moneyless society Marx describes as Upper Stage Communism, but the Soviets never argued that they had. What the Soviets did, was begin the process of working towards that.
Thanks for a proper response. More than others in this thread are capable of.
The clear distinction is hard, I accept that point. The phases at least how I learned it are clear. First state owned then truly society owned as a goal. They never got anywhere near that. Nor a classless society. It wasn’t the old classes from before 1900 but classes as in power structures were very much present.
And yes it was their expressed and I believe trat they were truthful about that to create a communist state. But there were power struggles and the clear ideas became unclear and what remained (intentionally or not) was the name of the goal justifying all the horrible things.
Again, I am not arguing against or for communism, just making the argument that there was never a communist country as in the sense they reached something resembling the idea of the word. Keeping in mind that there is not a clear line of demarcation, this much is clear to me.
This is incorrect. The USSR was Socialist, and was attempting to work towards building Communism.
Yes working towards as in socialism is the first stage to communism. But they didn’t get far thus my argument was there wasn’t communism in the USSR.
They got pretty far, they were Socialist for nearly the entire 20th century. They liberalized towards the end and were dissolved, but the narrative that they weren’t Socialist or that it wasn’t a real attempt at building Communism is nonsense.
Yes arguing that Russia was never socialist (or tried hard to be) would be nonsense. I am not arguing that though. I said that there was never communism. As in, archived and not used as veil to hide the failing government and society.
To be fair, it has the most boots to be licked and some people have urges that the rest of us will never understand. /S
Someone offended your favorite colonizer!
Quick, to the semantic-debate mobile, we must split the hairs!!
Nah dude, someone took the opportunity to use a slogan originating in witch hunts of people threatening the ruling class in their bleeding of post-war prosperity in America.
This is about some despot using their resources to interfere with what modest self-governance we have in America
Yeah keep dreaming about the communist utopia that will definitely happen… somewhere… at some point… …maybe…?
Communism isn’t Utopian, it isn’t a “perfect model of society” that people simply need to agree with in their minds to adopt. It’s closer to a theory of historical development and analyzing what will come after Capitalism in that long chain of development.
Knowing about it can speed up the process of development, since you can better direct it, but modes of production emerge from what came before.
What is Red in this context?
C. All of the above.
deleted by creator
Russia isn’t Communist anymore.
Why’d you delete that?
Just to elaborate, my first thought was: “I dislike this anti-Communist Cold War-era hysteria. I’ll post something to try to counter this hysteria.”
And then I realized: Wait. People are going to think I’m “defending” Russia against accusations of being Communist, and I’m tired of people attacking me for being “pro-Russia”, so I deleted it almost immediately.
So, basically, I’ve started to self-censor my thoughts because I find the toxicity of Lemmy exhausting. Go enjoy hunting your Reds under the Bed, and I’m going to do something better with my time, like go outside.
I really wanted Lemmy to work out, but it’s clear to me that this place is as bad as Reddit, just in a different way.
So, basically, I’ve started to self-censor my thoughts because I find the toxicity of Lemmy exhausting. Go enjoy hunting your Reds under the Bed, and I’m going to do something better with my time, like go outside.
I really wanted Lemmy to work out, but it’s clear to me that this place is as bad as Reddit, just in a different way.
Depends on the instance. Lemmy.world tends to be one of the more toxic instances if you left Reddit, it’s trying to recreate Reddit itself, and the users are generally people who loved Reddit but hated Spez in particular for the API crisis.
I decided it wasn’t worth arguing over.
That’s why he’s nothing more than vatnik kompromat.
Translation: He wants Russia to win the War and for America to be signed over to the Kremlin, but he knows he can’t say that aloud
…i don’t think he wants anything other than to keep uncle vlad at bay…
Forgot the context of what you were responding to when I saw it in my list of replies I’ve recieved, so I thought for a second that someone was trying to fight Dracula… and I’m like “Them Belmonts are at it again aren’t they? Didn’t think Drac was gonna be back for another 11 years”
This needs to be very widely publicized.
It was a presidential debate. It was fairly publicized.
I think maybe they mean… Like, not washed out by the other 90 minutes of crazy shit he was saying.
Oh no doubt. I only wish she hadn’t spent so much time explaining what a fucking idiot he was instead of taking about herself or her plans. He made all those talking points for her by, well, talking… It was a great beat down nonetheless, and I get it was her one time to really make a fool out of him in person, but again, he did that better than anyone ever could.
Great show overall, would watch season 2.
She walked him like a dog. Flatly stated he could be easily manipulated, and proceeded to do just that. He could not even muster the courage to make meaningful eye contact with her the entire debate. She just stared him down and dominated him. How brutally emasculating for him.
Watching it made me so hungry, going to doordash some fried kitten.
I dunno, I just read an article about that country’s political debate from last night and it didn’t mention this point, it was mostly discussing how angry that bloke got at the other politician and how overall it seems like it was a bad night for him and a good night for her.
The specifics were a bit overshadowed by the perceived importance of the event and it’s outcome itself, I think.
I’m sure in the coming days some more details will flow out of the USA and we’ll hear some discussion of specifics where they concern us, like their politician’s stances on the war in Europe, I agree. I’ve just not seen it mentioned just yet is all.
But it’s only 7am and I think the debate was in the middle of the night, so I shouldn’t expect much yet haha :-D
But Kamala Harris should have poited that out and reminded everyone that Trump wouldn’t answer. Then it would be her jabbing him instead of some talking head no one knows letting it pass. Missed opportunity.
It will not put off his voters. Some of them just don’t care about anything international. Others admire Putin as a strongman who isn’t afraid to kill his enemies and persecute minorities, a moral conservative, a self-professed Christian, an ally against democracy and a defender of the same bigotries they share.
He doesn’t just need the MAGA faithful to win. I can’t believe I have to keep saying this.
You’re right. The hope is that they’re not enough and he fails to attract anyone else.
I don’t think he’s gaining voters and I do think he’s losing them.
It won’t. Because people are hung up about the eating pets thing. Which, insane as it is might have happened.
Idk why the actual issues are swept under the rug, and the controversial takes are the focus.
He knows he can’t say Russia but he doesn’t want Ukraine to win so he does this.
I don’t know why he can’t say Russia. It’s the obvious truth, his swallowers - sorry, his followers - would lap it up no matter what, and it’s no more or less insane than anything else he says.
They are more apt to believe obvious lies than obvious truths.
…how many years ago was it when “facts don’t care about your feelings” was their thing?
Their facts were nonsense, of course, but they at least tried. The lazy, obvious bullshit that 1/3 of the population immediately adopt as their whole identity now is genuinely depressing.
I feel like when Harris said that Putin would be sitting in Kyiv, Trump didn’t understand. “Why would he be in Kyiv, Putin would be at home, happier of course” because he’s taking it literally like a fucking idiot.
And yes, Trump, of course Putin would be happier with you in charge when he invaded. The Biden administration gave crucial Intel in the months leading up to the invasion and military support. Harris 100% deserves props for being involved in that.
I found it interesting that Trump claims if he wins the election, he’ll have the Russia / Ukraine conflict resolved BEFORE he even takes office. I’m paraphrasing there, but that’s how I interpreted what he stated.
If that’s the case, then it seems like he could choose to end the conflict at any time. Why doesn’t he just end it now? Save countless lives. Minimize injuries. Prevent suffering. Save money. I’m sure that’d change some voters’ minds if he did it. Might even win him the election.
Yes, this is a rhetorical question. I have no doubt that he can’t actually end it without basically giving in entirely to Russia.
It is a confusing statement. I understood it to be basically that once he is guaranteed to be president, Putin will know his man on the inside will be in charge, and Putin can end the war/negotiate for favorable terms with the US as enforcer.
Trump can’t end it before the election, because there’s no guarantee he’ll win.
Trump thinks that makes him a brilliant negotiator, instead of what he really is which is a stooge that can be played like a fiddle.
Harris said it in the debate.
Everyone knows he can be bought with favours.
I found it interesting that Trump claims if he wins the election, he’ll have the Russia / Ukraine conflict resolved BEFORE he even takes office.
He’s invoking the Iran Hostage Crisis, I think. Reagan famously cut a deal with the Ayatollah to release the American hostages on the day of his inauguration, despite Carter having nailed down a prisoner exchange months earlier.
If that’s the case, then it seems like he could choose to end the conflict at any time.
He’s full of shit. This isn’t a hostage negotiation where Biden did 95% of the work for him already. This is an intractable siege spanning a third of the country’s land area which has been spiraling into long range bombings of the respective civilian capitals. Trump isn’t going to be able to leverage a ceasefire that’s already on the table, because Zelensky isn’t asking for a ceasefire, he’s asking for permission to use higher capacity long range missiles to force Russian troops off the southern front.
I have no doubt that he can’t actually end it without basically giving in entirely to Russia.
The siren song Trump sings is that he could have prevented the '22 invasion by playing nice with Putin before tanks crossed the border. And 100%, if there had been a detente prior to the outbreak of open conflict, hundreds of thousands of lives would have been saved. Even at a concession of territory, this arguably would have been preferable to the holocaust committed across the territory to date.
But the reality is that he was just as happy to sell advanced weapons systems to Ukraine in 2018 as Biden has been in extending military aid today. If anything, Trump was more responsible for the Ukraine/Russia war going hot than Biden. And not even for particularly noble reasons (MIC $$$!!!)
Trump falsely promised Ukrainian leadership his full support in the event of a Russian retaliation, sold them a bunch of tacti-cool military surplus, and then turned around and tried to cut the same fucking deal with the Russians.
In this sense, it also invokes Reagan who was famous for sending Rumsfeld to cut arms deals with both Iran and Iraq shortly before the outbreak of the Iran-Iraq War.
Promising both countries your support, goading them into conflict, and then pulling back to let them duke it out is textbook John Bolton foreign policy. And guess who was whispering in Trump’s ear all through that first term in office?
You should have learned by now that everything that comes out of Trump’s mouth is pure bullshit.
It’s not a mystery how he plans to do it. He’ll demand Zelenskyy cede taken territory to Russia. If Zelenskyy doesn’t accept those terms, then the funding to Ukraine will stop.
He doesn’t mean he could end it at any time. He says “if I’m elected” cause he’s talking about the time period after he won the election but before he actually took office.
The moment you win the election and become the person who will DEFINITELY be the president in a couple of months, your bargaining power with other nations (and anyone really) goes through the roof compared to what you had as a mere candidate.
I’ve stated that last as a fact though it’s just what seems self-evidently true to me.
Of course, he wants Russia to win, duh
He’s browsing too much hexbear
lol
Same reason you don’t see tankies in this thread.
Because he defederated them?
So much conservative talking points about Kamala is pro-genocide with no evidence.
Like motherfucker, your main boy has zero plans and has a history of flying by the seat of his pants and having Americans killed.
I’m not a conservative and everything you said about Trump is correct.
But Kamala is pro genocide here’s the evidence: https://lemmy.ml/post/19744450
Nothing will fundamentally change
